No tax credit in 2017

[stevewa]

With regards to CARB, I don't think the other states surrendered their regulatory sovereignty to CARB, they just signed an agreement to implement the same standards. Maybe I misunderstood that?

 

[dan2112]

...I am not willing to go above that price and I am not willing to buy a first generation car. But if this were a second or third generation car I might have bought it.

I think that given GM's experience building the Spark and the Volt one could consider the Bolt EV as a second generation car in some respects. It's certainly not the first electric car they've ever made, as Nissan's Leaf was.

Fair enough and good point. Ok so first model year in this configuration. That comment was not meant as a "dig" against the Bolt or GM. I didn't put down a deposit on a Tesla Model 3 for the very same reason. GM has learned a ton through the Volt and the battery tech on the Bolt looks world class - but like anything I want the kinks to be worked out before a purchase. I am very excited to test drive the Bolt coming from a LEAF. I will be driving the LEAF to the GM dealer and my wife and I will take turns driving one then the other over the same test drive course. Should be an interesting comparison.

 

[WetEV]

With regards to CARB, I don't think the other states surrendered their regulatory sovereignty to CARB, they just signed an agreement to implement the same standards. Maybe I misunderstood that?

States do not have regulatory sovereignty to surrender, Constitution gives interstate commerce authority to Federal government. Auto business is mostly across state lines, so is interstate commerce. As is air pollution. Federal law, the Clean Air Act of 1970, delegates to CARB the authority to set air pollution standards in California with Federal review, and the rest of the states are free to follow Federal standards or CARB standards under the Clean Air Act. Congress could repeal the authority of Ronald Reagan's CARB at any time.

What will happen? I have not a clue.

IANAL. YMMV. IMO.

 

[stevewa]

States do not have regulatory sovereignty to surrender, Constitution gives interstate commerce authority to Federal government. Auto business is mostly across state lines, so is interstate commerce. As is air pollution. Federal law, the Clean Air Act of 1970, delegates to CARB the authority to set air pollution standards in California with Federal review, and the rest of the states are free to follow Federal standards or CARB standards under the Clean Air Act. Congress could repeal the authority of Ronald Reagan's CARB at any time.

What will happen? I have not a clue.

IANAL. YMMV. IMO.

The industry as a whole, yes, but franchised dealerships, not so much. I think you will likely find that most dealerships are incorporated locally and are just owned by holding companies that can cross state lines. In any case, the current argument being made by conservatives is that these sorts of regulations SHOULD be done on a state by state basis, regardless of the fact that air and water don't respect state or federal boundaries!

 

[WetEV]

In any case, the current argument being made by conservatives is that these sorts of regulations SHOULD be done on a state by state basis, regardless of the fact that air and water don't respect state or federal boundaries!

Just briefly think about a future where each and every state has it's very own automotive pollution and safety regulations. Automakers would have to test and certify that a car passed 50 sets of regulations, rather than just 2 sets of regulations (CARB and national). There is a good reason to consider the wisdom of the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution.

Or maybe what the conservatives really want is that automakers can certify that a car passes any one state's regulations, and then can be sold in all fifty states. That way Wyoming can set the air quality standards for LA. I'm sure that will work great. :roll:

 

[Nagorak]

I think if the Federal credit is axed there's a good chance California will up its credit to compensate. This is a really polarized climate where many in CA do not accept the legitimacy of Trump. Trump performed terribly in CA, even losing Riverside county.

The ZEV mandate and green energy is a really big deal in CA and the legislature really will not want it to fail. There will be a lot of pressure to fight back against whatever negative actions Trump takes.

Granted even if that does comes to pass it won't much help outside of CA.

 

[evnow]

Congress is working on the tax bill right now. And yes, they can take away the credit for 2017. The car manufacturers won't fight. They don't really want to build these cars. Just ask the fiat Chrysler guy.
If they could not make money on the fiat, I'm sure they can't on the bolt either.
It's regulation states very clearly that you need to put the car into service the same year you claim the credit for. So it would not even be retroactive at all.

Nope. Republican senators from TN will stop it. Tax credits aren't going away (though they may put a MSRP limit to prevent Model S/X getting it).

 

[pdxbolt]

Nope. Republican senators from TN will stop it. Tax credits aren't going away (though they may put a MSRP limit to prevent Model S/X getting it).[/quote]


I'm curious what motivation senators from TN (did I read that correctly???)
have to stop that? Tennessee? Really?

 

[evnow]

I'm curious what motivation senators from TN (did I read that correctly???)
have to stop that? Tennessee? Really?

Nissan is in TN. All politics is local.

 

[pdxbolt]

I'm curious what motivation senators from TN (did I read that correctly???)
have to stop that? Tennessee? Really?

Nissan is in TN. All politics is local.

Ah. I see what you mean. But Nissan makes more than the leaf. And they would not have to quit making it. I don't see that it would hurt them. As a whole, Congress and the cheeto king are opposed to anything even remotely green. Their leadership will promise them something else.

 

[evnow]

Ah. I see what you mean. But Nissan makes more than the leaf. And they would not have to quit making it. I don't see that it would hurt them. As a whole, Congress and the cheeto king are opposed to anything even remotely green. Their leadership will promise them something else.

You are assuming Nissan is way way less into EVs than they are.

 

[pdxbolt]

Ah. I see what you mean. But Nissan makes more than the leaf. And they would not have to quit making it. I don't see that it would hurt them. As a whole, Congress and the cheeto king are opposed to anything even remotely green. Their leadership will promise them something else.

You are assuming Nissan is way way less into EVs than they are.

I don't think any car maker is into electric cars.

 

[evnow]

I don't think any car maker is into electric cars.

Sigh. I only have my 6 years of experience to go by (see Leaf forum).

 

[LeftieBiker]

Nissan's CEO loves to talk about EVs, and their corporate policy and long-term planning do seem to promote them heavily, but when you look at how little Nissan has actually done since releasing the Leaf, the more apt comparison would be to a company that believes in updating their compliance EV every few years, as cheaply as possible, while producing occasional EV concept cars. The battery packs have been improved quite a bit, starting in April of 2013, but here are a few things that were bad in the 2011 Leaf, and remain just as bad today:

* Terrible halogen high beams on the headlights. I don't just mean "They aren't LEDs." I mean "They are terrible - dim, patchy, dangerous.

* Poor steering wheel heater thermostat. If left to its own devices, it will get too hot, then shut down for far too long, then repeat the cycle. Minor, sure but also easy to fix, yet they haven't.

* No variable charge limit. This was actually something that early Leafs did have in primitive form, but after the EPA punished them for it, Nissan dropped and never reinstated. You want your 2017 Leaf SL to stop charging at 80 or 90%? You have to estimate when it will reach that level, and unplug it.

 

[Nagorak]

Nissan's CEO loves to talk about EVs, and their corporate policy and long-term planning do seem to promote them heavily, but when you look at how little Nissan has actually done since releasing the Leaf, the more apt comparison would be to a company that believes in updating their compliance EV every few years, as cheaply as possible, while producing occasional EV concept cars. The battery packs have been improved quite a bit, starting in April of 2013, but here are a few things that were bad in the 2011 Leaf, and remain just as bad today:

* Terrible halogen high beams on the headlights. I don't just mean "They aren't LEDs." I mean "They are terrible - dim, patchy, dangerous.

* Poor steering wheel heater thermostat. If left to its own devices, it will get too hot, then shut down for far too long, then repeat the cycle. Minor, sure but also easy to fix, yet they haven't.

* No variable charge limit. This was actually something that early Leafs did have in primitive form, but after the EPA punished them for it, Nissan dropped and never reinstated. You want your 2017 Leaf SL to stop charging at 80 or 90%? You have to estimate when it will reach that level, and unplug it.

I can vouch for the Leaf steering wheel heater, at least in the 2013 model. I haven't had my Leaf long, but just experienced that this morning. The wheel doesn't really get too hot. Instead it seems to be a decent temperature, but then shuts off. By the time it turns back on again it's gotten pretty cold. You end up with a weird fluctuating temperature where sometimes it's decently warm, and others its pretty cold. It really hampers the effectiveness of the feature. I hope the heated steering wheel in the Bolt is better, or it won't be worth much.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Nissan's CEO loves to talk about EVs, and their corporate policy and long-term planning do seem to promote them heavily, but when you look at how little Nissan has actually done since releasing the Leaf, the more apt comparison would be to a company that believes in updating their compliance EV every few years, as cheaply as possible, while producing occasional EV concept cars. The battery packs have been improved quite a bit, starting in April of 2013, but here are a few things that were bad in the 2011 Leaf, and remain just as bad today:

* Terrible halogen high beams on the headlights. I don't just mean "They aren't LEDs." I mean "They are terrible - dim, patchy, dangerous.

* Poor steering wheel heater thermostat. If left to its own devices, it will get too hot, then shut down for far too long, then repeat the cycle. Minor, sure but also easy to fix, yet they haven't.

* No variable charge limit. This was actually something that early Leafs did have in primitive form, but after the EPA punished them for it, Nissan dropped and never reinstated. You want your 2017 Leaf SL to stop charging at 80 or 90%? You have to estimate when it will reach that level, and unplug it.

I can vouch for the Leaf steering wheel heater, at least in the 2013 model. I haven't had my Leaf long, but just experienced that this morning. The wheel doesn't really get too hot. Instead it seems to be a decent temperature, but then shuts off. By the time it turns back on again it's gotten pretty cold. You end up with a weird fluctuating temperature where sometimes it's decently warm, and others its pretty cold. It really hampers the effectiveness of the feature. I hope the heated steering wheel in the Bolt is better, or it won't be worth much.

My 2012 Leaf's steering wheel absolutely gets too hot. Left to its own devices, it will get so hot that you literally cannot hold the steering wheel with your bare hands. At times it has become a safety concern to me. So maybe they did improve it after 2012?

Nissan has promised us multiple variants of EVs would be available by now - the eNV200 van and the BladeGlider to name two. Yet we still only have the modestly-improved-from-launch Leaf. And they failed to announce anything about the next generation Leaf at both CES and NAIAS this month. I was once a Nissan believer, but now I need to see it to believe.

 

[pdxbolt]

I don't think any car maker is into electric cars.

Sigh. I only have my 6 years of experience to go by (see Leaf forum).

I'm not saying they are not making any.
We have a 2014 Leaf ourselves.
I just don't think that they are enthusiastic about building them.

 

[user 124]

All very interesting, but what does this have to do with the 2017 tax credit?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

All very interesting, but what does this have to do with the 2017 tax credit?

Tangentially, I guess, it is related. If the tax credit does disappear in 2017 (or 2018), which manufacturers are invested enough in the technology to continue selling EVs in all 50 states? Clearly they need to still build them for European and Asian markets. Also for certain CARB states (unless that gets undermined too).

My guess (purely speculation) is that they would all but pull out of the other (non-CARB) states. Maybe you can buy a car, but there will be no deals to be had on them. And you have to special-order them sight-unseen. Kind of like Ford does today with the Focus EV.

I'm starting to think that the new administration will have its hands full fighting the ACA, and will leave the credits alone for now. There's only so much that can be done at a time.

 

[evnow]

I just don't think that they are enthusiastic about building them.

You don't spend Billions if you are not enthusiastic. As the CEO, you don't stake your reputation on it if you aren't enthusiastic.