Hyundai will annonce Ioniq EV for U.S. market

[jhm614]

The new "standard" for EVs is a min 200 mile range. At the moment, the Bolt is the ONLY EV that can meet this standard. It's available in CA, OR, WA, MD, MA and VA now and will be available to order in all states by July.

The new standard for a $37.5k EV is a min 200 mile range. The question is what car will become the $29.5k EV standard. The Ioniq looks like it has a shot.

 

[boltage]

Would most people have driving patterns with varying daily distances?

A. Common trip daily distance.
B. Occasional trip daily distance.
C. Rare trip daily distance.

For example, someone may drive 40 miles in a day regularly, 80 miles occasionally, and 200 miles rarely (A = 40, B = 80, C = 200).

Someone considering an EV may have the following considerations:

1. If s/he is in a household with another non-EV car that s/he can use, then s/he may be satisfied with an EV that covers case A.
2. If an EV is his/her only car, then s/he may prefer that his/her EV covers at least B, with coverage of C being a bonus. Obviously, speed and convenience of recharging speed matters in terms of how much a priority coverage of B or C would be.

I would not be surprised if the Ioniq's 124 mile range made it much more desirable than current short range EVs with 80-100 mile range, in terms of bringing more potential buyers' B trips within range without needing to recharge. Also, the extra range may provide a little more comfort zone beyond anticipated daily distance for cold weather, side trips, etc. compared to the 80-100 mile EVs.

However, it may not directly compete with 200+ mile EVs like the Bolt, which would be favored by those whose A and B trips are longer, or who find it more convenient for their C trips.

 

[oilerlord]

Didn't know there were so many Iconiq lovers here. Interesting.

We all have different needs. If you don't need the 200+ mile range of a Bolt and like the "amenities" of the Iconiq or other EV/PHEVs better, that's also fine.

The Bolt is the only EV in its price range currently available that works for me. Why?

1) It's an EV and I never have to stop at a gas station in it, except to buy drinks/snacks. I didn't lease it to save the planet. I leased it to avoid the inconvenience of needing to constantly go to the gas station to refill the tank in the gas guzzling FJ Cruiser it replaced.

2) It has a 200+ mile range that I won't need it all of the time but when I do will get me to and from home w/o the need to stop for a charge. If I had to stop to recharge after just 70-80 miles, it would be even more inconvenient than needing to refill my FJ after a 120-160 mile drive.

3) It's the right price for me at $40k before credits/rebates that will "only" cost me $307/mo. The only other EV currently available near $40k is a used Model S, which (apart from other issues) would still cost me more than the Bolt. Also didn't want to wait for a Model 3 which I also expect to cost more. PHEVs were't an option, see reason #1 above. I've had 2 Priuses before.

4) All I needed was a small hatchback to use as my daily driver. I've got 2 other cars & a truck to fulfill my other vehicular needs. The firm seat and limited trunk capacity is not an issue for me.

So, I chose the Bolt because its works best for me in terms of price, range and "convenience." If the Iconiq, Leaf or whatever works better for you, again, that's fine too.

Let's explore that.

1} It's an EV and I never have to stop at a gas station in it

Don't all EV's accomplish that?

2) It has a 200+ mile range that I won't need it all of the time but when I do will get me to and from home w/o the need to stop for a charge.

Just a guess, but it's likely you drive no more than 40 miles in a day (which is the national average). Your signature lists three other vehicles that can already do 200+ mile trips. You have choices for infrequent long trips.

3) It's the right price for me at $40k before credits/rebates that will "only" cost me $307/mo.

There are other EV's that would "only" cost you as little as $59/mo.

4) All I needed was a small hatchback to use as my daily driver. I've got 2 other cars & a truck to fulfill my other vehicular needs.

Last time I checked, the Bolt wasn't the only small hatchback EV on the market.

You've given four reasons why "only" a Bolt would work for you, but if we're being honest, it boils down to one. You've convinced yourself that you "need" a BEV that can go 200+ miles.

You dig your new Bolt and I congratulate you on your purchase. To your point, we all have different needs. We all buy cars for tangible / intangible reasons that fit our daily lives. No justification required. You're happy with it which is all that matters.

 

[SeanNelson]

It has to be to compete with the Bolt with almost twice the range.

No it doesn't, and again, all-electric range isn't the be-all end-all. The rest of the car matters.

Well sure, but let's see Hyundai price it the same as the Bolt and see how well it does.

Range is important enough to enough EV buyers that it will have an effect despite other differences.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Well sure, but let's see Hyundai price it the same as the Bolt and see how well it does.

The pricing is out (I don't have it handy) and it starts much lower then the Bolt, with only a fully-optioned Ioniq EV coming maybe close to the price of a Premiere. If they offer a couple of good lease options, it will be a winner for those who don't need 200 mile range.

 

[sgt1372]

To your point, we all have different needs. We all buy cars for tangible / intangible reasons that fit our daily lives. No justification required. You're happy with it which is all that matters.

Yes, thanks.

 

[oilerlord]

[

Well sure, but let's see Hyundai price it the same as the Bolt and see how well it does.

Range is important enough to enough EV buyers that it will have an effect despite other differences.

Let's see Chevy price the Bolt the same as the Model S and see how well it does.

Enough range is important to EV buyers. How much is enough is subject to reality vs perception about how much we drive in a day/week/month.

I recall that not that long ago, so many of us EV enthusiasts were standing behind statements like "80 miles is all you need", and "just rent an ICE" for long trips. Curious how we now suddenly "need" our EV's to have 200+ miles of range, when most of us have access to a second (third, or fourth) car that already fills that need.

Even more curious how we use the word "need" so often in reference to things we want.

 

[boltage]

Well sure, but let's see Hyundai price it the same as the Bolt and see how well it does.

The pricing is out (I don't have it handy) and it starts much lower then the Bolt, with only a fully-optioned Ioniq EV coming maybe close to the price of a Premiere. If they offer a couple of good lease options, it will be a winner for those who don't need 200 mile range.

The announced prices for the trim lines were back on page 2 of this thread. Probaby about $5,000 to $7,000 less than the Bolt at MSRP, if we assume that there are additional option packages on top of the top trim, like on other Hyundais.

Lease pricing can, of course, be subject to other variables.

 

[phil0909]

[

Well sure, but let's see Hyundai price it the same as the Bolt and see how well it does.

Range is important enough to enough EV buyers that it will have an effect despite other differences.

Let's see Chevy price the Bolt the same as the Model S and see how well it does.

I think you're now making Sean's point for him. That is, if you produce an inferior product, you must price it lower if you hope to compete in the market. This is true whether you are Chevy or Hyundai.

 

[SeanNelson]

Well sure, but let's see Hyundai price it the same as the Bolt and see how well it does.

Range is important enough to enough EV buyers that it will have an effect despite other differences.

Let's see Chevy price the Bolt the same as the Model S and see how well it does.

I think you're now making Sean's point for him. That is, if you produce an inferior product, you must price it lower if you hope to compete in the market. This is true whether you are Chevy or Hyundai.

Exactly. And although the Ionique may have better interior appointments, the fact that they've priced it considerably lower than the Bolt shows that they understand that those appointments don't make up for the lesser range.

 

[oilerlord]

Exactly. And although the Ionique may have better interior appointments, the fact that they've priced it considerably lower than the Bolt shows that they understand that those appointments don't make up for the lesser range.

Sean, they priced it lower because they can. The Ioniq BEV ships with a 28 kWh battery, and the PHEV with 8.9 kWh. The savings from that allowed Hyundai to offer an attractive looking car with a relatively upscale interior, and "appointments" such as a heat pump and entry-level Autopilot - at a lower overall price than the Bolt.

In terms of range, Hyundai got it right for the majority of the population. My driving habits fit squarely in the national average that drive less than 40 miles per day. I've put 7000 miles so far on my 87 mile EV with absolutely no range issues - even through this cold winter. Given the choice of a 238 mile car at $40K and a better appointed 124 mile car at $30K with 42% more range than I have now - I choose the latter. I think a lot of others would too. If Hyundai offered a 240 mile car for $10,000 more - I'd save the $10K and go with the 124 mile car. You'll never get that money back on resale.

I feel like I'm having a debate with an anti-EV guy that won't buy an EV unless it goes 300 miles. I think you've been drinking too much of GM's "Game Changer" Kool-aid.

 

[SeanNelson]

Exactly. And although the Ionique may have better interior appointments, the fact that they've priced it considerably lower than the Bolt shows that they understand that those appointments don't make up for the lesser range.

Sean, they priced it lower because they can.

Of course they CAN, but if they thought they could sell sufficient quantities at a price closer to that of the Bolt then why wouldn't they would have done that?

Like it or not, the Bolt really has had in impact on the EV market. It's forcing prices down. That's a good thing, even if you don't need the range of the Bolt, and I hope we see more of it in the future.

Now of course the Bolt itself isn't really solely responsible for this - it's actually enabled by the steady improvement of battery technology that all the manufacturers are benefiting from. But the Bolt is probably the most visible manifestation of it.

 

[Nagorak]

I think GM is pricing the Bolt higher because they can. When the Volt first came out it was selling for what the Bolt is now, and now it's much cheaper. The same thing will probably happen with the Bolt. I don't expect GM will cut prices until they have to, especially now that they've cornered the market. It is nice, however, that we have some cheaper options where the trade-off is lower range.

Ultimately for EVs to take off, however, we need 200+ miles of range at a comparable price to a gas car. Maybe 5 years from now we'll be there. The unfortunate truth is the "80 miles of range is enough" argument, while true, just isn't going to convince the average person. For those of us already into EVs, and having accepted that, the Ioniq is worth a look though.

 

[boltage]

It is nice, however, that we have some cheaper options where the trade-off is lower range.

Ultimately for EVs to take off, however, we need 200+ miles of range at a comparable price to a gas car. Maybe 5 years from now we'll be there. The unfortunate truth is the "80 miles of range is enough" argument, while true, just isn't going to convince the average person. For those of us already into EVs, and having accepted that, the Ioniq is worth a look though.

Probably many drivers do drive 60-80 (or more) mile days at least occasionally, and such trips may not involve parking where there are chargers. The Ioniq's 124 mile range will cover the occasional driving for a significantly greater percentage of drivers than an 80 mile range will cover.

Somewhat longer range may also reduce battery degradation, due to less need to keep it fully topped up as often as possible, and needing fewer charging cycles (consider small cell phone batteries that need to be charged every day, and need topping up frequently if you use the phone a lot -- they seem to degrade noticeably in months). Also, someone who drives up to 60 miles a day may find a degraded 124 mile battery to still be acceptable, but a degraded 80 mile battery too close to the edge.

One other factor:

Right now, EVs are inconvenient for those living in rental housing, since rental housing residents need to find charging elsewhere. If rental housing provided metered 40A 240V outlets in large lockers (that EVSEs can be put in) by resident parking spaces, then EV owners who live there could conveniently charge at home. However, such provisions are unlikely to happen unless there is enough demand from EV owners looking for rental housing.

 

[SparkE]

Concerning "... unlikely to happen unless there is enough demand from EV owners looking for rental housing"

I have to agree - I see it happening near me. When appt complexes need to compete to get tenants, and having EVSEs in or next to the complex is that added 'plus' that may make the difference, the charging stations get installed.

I live in the southern Bay Area (near San Jose). There is a relatively large EV population here. More and more appt buildings around here have charging stations. The 'pricier' the area, the more likely it is to find EVSEs. Also around here, when a largish parking structure goes up (>150 spots) , it tends to have charging spots, whether it is office space, retail, or appts. The new "Main Street" complex (at least I think that's the stupid name they picked) in Cupertino, which is mixed-use development (appts, offices, retail on ground floor) has a new parking bldg with 20-ish chargers in it. I'm *guessing* there are 250-350 total spots.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Another approach is to offer to install an EVSE for new tenants. I looked at a complex under construction that had large freestanding solar panels for most of the daytime power, offered parking spaces under the carport-like structure, and was willing to install charging stations for the assigned space. Unfortunately, it was also very near a main highway plus a freeway...

 

[boltage]

Another approach is to offer to install an EVSE for new tenants. I looked at a complex under construction that had large freestanding solar panels for most of the daytime power, offered parking spaces under the carport-like structure, and was willing to install charging stations for the assigned space. Unfortunately, it was also very near a main highway plus a freeway...

If the concern is that drivers from the main highway or freeway will stop by to mooch off of your electricity and occupy your parking space, then the EVSE could be enclosed in a locker that can be unlocked only by the tenant assigned to the parking space.

 

[oilerlord]

I think GM is pricing the Bolt higher because they can. When the Volt first came out it was selling for what the Bolt is now, and now it's much cheaper. The same thing will probably happen with the Bolt. I don't expect GM will cut prices until they have to, especially now that they've cornered the market. It is nice, however, that we have some cheaper options where the trade-off is lower range.

GM is pricing the Bolt in keeping with the cost of materials - in particular, it's large battery. It's been reported that GM loses $9,000 on each Bolt they sell. They are pricing the Bolt higher because they have to.

Ultimately for EVs to take off, however, we need 200+ miles of range at a comparable price to a gas car. Maybe 5 years from now we'll be there. The unfortunate truth is the "80 miles of range is enough" argument, while true, just isn't going to convince the average person. For those of us already into EVs, and having accepted that, the Ioniq is worth a look though.

For EV's to take off, it's going to take a lot more than an EV that can go 200+ miles. The 'unfortunate truth" is that the average person doesn't care if an EV goes 80, 124, or 238 miles. The average person asks basic questions such as "how far does it go on a charge" "how long does it take to charge" and "how long do the batteries last". Dealers don't have a clue, and the best answers that EV enthusiasts can come up with are "It depends". Hipsters refer to EV's as "appliances"....just plug it in like your cell phone and go, right? Give the average person credit; they aren't that stupid. They may not "get" EV's but they know that EV ownership is a lot more complicated than that - and they're right.

The reality is in a world of cheap gasoline, we're asking people to pay 50-100% more for a cars that exist in an environment of acronyms such as kWh, EVSE, L1/2/3, CCS, DCFC, MPGe, along with the understanding of the pros & cons of going electric vs ICE. We're also trying (and failing) to convince Joe Public that instead of refueling in a couple of minutes, it's somehow better to wait 9 hours or more to charge. Further, we're asking the average person to sacrifice size & luxury in the name of saving the planet. It's all too much to ask, which is why less than 1% of new car buyers choose an EV.

You think we'll be there 5 years from now? Don't hold your breath.

 

[SeanNelson]

You think we'll be there 5 years from now? Don't hold your breath.

We won't be "there". But we'll be closer.

 

[boltage]

Further, we're asking the average person to sacrifice size & luxury in the name of saving the planet.

In the US, it seems strangely odd that the only external or political reason for choosing an EV that people notice is the environmental one. But the US is a net oil importer, so oil contributes to the trade deficit that many people (both left and right leaning) seem to worry about. Oil imports also send money to some countries' governments and entities that people (both left and right leaning) do not like, and the perceived necessity to keep oil supplies stable leads to various foreign policy entanglements. And oil companies themselves are not the most popular entities.

Granted, the political motivations around oil consumption are different in oil-exporting Canada (particularly Alberta).