Cadillac Version - Bolt BLR

[oilerlord]

Just musing...not a real car yet. I think that a Bolt in Cadillac trim (starting at $59,000) would make a lot of sense, especially if GM was able to stretch the wheelbase a little, add some Cadillac bling, and shape it into a package that resembles a small Model X. I wouldn't at all be surprised if this is in the works.

 

[Michael1]

No likely to happen. Every time Cadillac does something like that, it fails. The ELR is a recent example. It's too far outside their target market.

Now something Model S sized with rear drive, that would be a different story.

Michael

 

[MINK]

Cadillac ELR failed. What makes you think they'd ever visit that route again?

 

[oilerlord]

Cadillac ELR failed. What makes you think they'd ever visit that route again?

The ELR failed because it was Volt posing as a Cadillac - priced in Model S territory. Tesla has proven that there is a demand for a luxury EV in SUV packaging. It's exactly what I'd buy if not for the fact there isn't a larger electric SUV currently on the market that I can afford. I think that a reasonably priced (around $60,000) Cadillac "BLR" luxury SUV would sway some Model X buyers - especially if GM could stretch the wheelbase by a few inches and make it a little larger than the Bolt.

 

[SeanNelson]

I think that a reasonably priced (around $60,000) Cadillac "BLR" luxury SUV would sway some Model X buyers - especially if GM could stretch the wheelbase by a few inches and make it a little larger than the Bolt.

The luxury market is smaller than the mass market. I think GM would be prudent to wait and see how much support it gets from the mass market with the Bolt before any more experiments with the luxury market. A few posts on internet forums from people who want larger EVs is no guarantee of a market of sufficient size to warrant the design and manufacturing investment needed to produce such vehicles.

 

[SparkE]

I think that a reasonably priced (around $60,000) Cadillac "BLR" luxury SUV would sway some Model X buyers - especially if GM could stretch the wheelbase by a few inches and make it a little larger than the Bolt.

The luxury market is smaller than the mass market. I think GM would be prudent to wait and see how much support it gets from the mass market with the Bolt before any more experiments with the luxury market. A few posts on internet forums from people who want larger EVs is no guarantee of a market of sufficient size to warrant the design and manufacturing investment needed to produce such vehicles.

I actually think that you have it exactly backwards. The luxury market is smaller than the mass market, SO :

- you take an automobile platform that is successful (the Bolt), into which you have invested lots of money doing development
- you re-style it as a larger SUV (more inside room, wider, room for more batteries, and higher end finishing)
- you sell it for 100% more than what you based it on

You have taken your sunk cost (in the original lower-cost EV), taken the battery tech, the EV motor, the on-board logic, etc and with a bit more study costs you have widened your offering to more vehicles with HIGHER profit margins. Instead of selling 5000 more Bolts, you instead sell 5000 luxury vehicles that have (maybe) 5-10x the profit margin of the vehicle that you based it on. That would seem to be the smart move.

 

[sam]

Think I would just buy the Cadillac

 

[Michael1]

I actually think that you have it exactly backwards. The luxury market is smaller than the mass market, SO :

- you take an automobile platform that is successful (the Bolt), into which you have invested lots of money doing development
- you re-style it as a larger SUV (more inside room, wider, room for more batteries, and higher end finishing)
- you sell it for 100% more than what you based it on

Sure, and everyone will just say "It's just a rebadged Bolt."

They have tried it. It never works. That's why Cadillac later came up with their own rear drive platforms.

The BEV enthusiasts think the public will buy a car just because it is electric. The public couldn't care less about BEVs. The BEV has to be a better car than the equivalent gasoline car before public will buy. The Bolt likely to meet that standard, but it doesn't meet Cadillac standards.

 

[SeanNelson]

You have taken your sunk cost (in the original lower-cost EV), taken the battery tech, the EV motor, the on-board logic, etc and with a bit more study costs you have widened your offering to more vehicles with HIGHER profit margins. Instead of selling 5000 more Bolts, you instead sell 5000 luxury vehicles that have (maybe) 5-10x the profit margin of the vehicle that you based it on. That would seem to be the smart move.

Sure, but as a manufacturer you want to make sure that people are going to buy the base car before you possibly throw good money after bad. And you find that out by selling to the mass market because that's where you have the greatest volume potential.

 

[michael]

I think the Bolt is too small to appeal to the Cadillac market.

I think Ford missed big time by not taking the Fusion platform, already available as a PHEV, converting it to a 200+ mile BEV (possibly with range extender?) and selling it as a Lincoln Mk E. I think that would have attracted the Tesla market.

 

[oilerlord]

I think the Bolt is too small to appeal to the Cadillac market.

I think the Bolt's it too small to appeal to a lot of Chevy buyers too. I get that small & light = longer range, and perhaps that was the challenge in bringing an "affordable" EV to market. Bigger platform = higher cost.

IMHO, the Bolt would have a wider (pun!) audience if it was a little larger...I'm thinking the size of the Trax. Of course it's way too early, but I'm sure we can all agree that a Cadillac BLR - based on the Bolt / Trax, with all the Cadillac bling, priced at $60,000 would be interesting. There is a luxury EV segment - they are buying Teslas, not Chevy Bolts. I'm guessing the Model 3 that people will "want" will probably cost about $50,000. The Bolt BLR would be a great alternative. Crossover vehicles are hot.

No doubt the Cadillac ELR was a disaster, but GM would learn from it's mistakes and would do much better the next time around. Instead of making a weak Model S alternative, the Cadillac BLR, properly packaged and priced to compete with a well-equipped Model 3 - would be the only car of it's kind in the luxury electric SUV segment. I think if you build it, they will come.

 

[Michael1]

I think the Bolt is too small to appeal to the Cadillac market.

No doubt the Cadillac ELR was a disaster, but GM would learn from it's mistakes and would do much better the next time around. Instead of making a weak Model S alternative, the Cadillac BLR, properly packaged and priced to compete with a well-equipped Model 3 - would be the only car of it's kind in the luxury electric SUV segment. I think if you build it, they will come.

They can't do that with the front drive, twist rear axle Bolt platform. They would need a whole new platform. That's expensive.

I think GM would be wise to see how the Model 3 sells, and go from there. They would need to build a car BETTER than the Model 3 to compete, because there is a lot of Tesla brand mystique now.

 

[SeanNelson]

I think the Bolt's it too small to appeal to a lot of Chevy buyers too.

But it's the also right size to appeal to lots of other buyers. I live on the west coast, where small hatchbacks are really common. The Bolt is very similar in size to my Prius C and to the very many Honda Fits that I see running around here. It's a perfect, practical size for city driving and for road trips for two people. It's exactly what I was looking for in an electric vehicle. The Chevy Volt and Nissan Leafs are both too big for my tastes.

No single vehicle is the right one for everybody. But there are plenty of people for whom the Bolt is quite a desirable form factor.

 

[michael]

When I actually saw the car, it looked meaningfully larger than I anticipated from the dimensions. Didn't look small to me. A Spark, on the other hand, looks tiny to me.

And once you sit in a Bolt, the interior space is substantially better than a Volt.

I think it could have been a little larger, but it's more than OK for me.

 

[SparkE]

When I actually saw the car, it looked meaningfully larger than I anticipated from the dimensions. Didn't look small to me. A Spark, on the other hand, looks tiny to me.

And once you sit in a Bolt, the interior space is substantially better than a Volt.

I think it could have been a little larger, but it's more than OK for me.

The SparkEV is one of the largest (inside) small autos I have sat in recently. It is TINY outside, but the inside cabin is as large front-to-back as a 1999 toyota corolla. Width-wise it is narrower because there is not a massive console between the front seats. Massively obese persons might have a problem with the car, but I am 6'2", and weigh 250 lbs (so not exactly skinny) and it is just fine for me. In fact, I love it. (It *does* have a very small, almost non-existent luggage space)

 

[michael]

I dunno. Every time I see a Spark on the road, I tell myself I'd never get into one.

 

[oilerlord]

But it's the also right size to appeal to lots of other buyers. It's exactly what I was looking for in an electric vehicle. No single vehicle is the right one for everybody. But there are plenty of people for whom the Bolt is quite a desirable form factor.

Never said the Bolt's size wouldn't appeal to lot of buyers, only that there are also a lot of buyers that will find it too small . If the Bolt was the size of the Trax, I doubt those few extra inches of cargo space, or rear seat legroom would be a deal breaker for you, but for me the Bolt's tiny trunk is a compromise I'd have to accept. If it's modestly larger, we're both happy.

No single vehicle is the right one for everybody, however there is a reason that cars keep getting larger - North Americans (generally speaking) want larger cars. Take a look at new Corolla and Civic sedans. Both are about the same size as older Camry's and Accords, while those models have become larger too. BMW's best selling 3-series BMW is now about the size of an older 5-series. Each time we see a model refresh, it's a safe bet that it's going to be a larger car. Like it or not, it's just the way things are.

I'm guessing / hoping that GM engineered the Bolt platform with the ability to scale to other Chevy mid-size vehicle models. I'd love to see that happen in luxury Cadillac form. Properly and tastefully done, I think a future Cadillac BLR would be a beautiful machine. Tesla owns the market on "sexy" electric cars. I'd like to see GM play in that space. A Cadillac BLR could grab some of that market.

 

[SeanNelson]

No single vehicle is the right one for everybody, however there is a reason that cars keep getting larger - North Americans (generally speaking) want larger cars. Take a look at new Corolla and Civic sedans. Both are about the same size as older Camry's and Accords, while those models have become larger too.

My recent trip across America from the west coast to the east coast and back leads me to believe that large cars and trucks rule the flyover states while smaller cars are a lot more popular in the cities, at least along the coast.

Car models always go upscale - it's the nature of the industry. They have to improve models every year, so they add features and size and when they upscale models out of a market they introduce new ones at the low end. I remember when the Civics and the Corolla were the small, entry models of the lineups but that position has long since been usurped by other cars such as the Echo, Matrix, Fit, Yaris, etc.

So yeah, lots of cars for lots of folks. And since range and cost are the paramount factors for EV vehicles right now it makes sense that the first long-range model from GM is a small vehicle, since you use less power to push it around and that maximizes its range and minimizes the battery cost.

 

[BoltyMcBoltFace]

If the Bolt was the size of the Trax, I doubt those few extra inches of cargo space, or rear seat legroom would be a deal breaker for you, but for me the Bolt's tiny trunk is a compromise I'd have to accept. If it's modestly larger, we're both happy.

I don't know where you get the idea that the Bolt is meaningfully smaller than the Trax. I just pulled the specs from Edmunds. All numbers are Bolt / Trax

length 164 / 167.2
width 69.5 / 69.9
height 62.8 / 65.2
front legroom 41.6 / 40.8
front headroom 39.7 / 39.6
rear legroom 36.5 / 35.7
rear headroom 37.9 / 38.8
cargo capacity 16.9 / 18.7

So yes, the Trax is 3 inches longer (all hood, I'd guess) and 2.5 inches higher (all ground clearance), with 1.8 cubic feet more room behind the rear seat. But you also seem to think the Bolt has less rear legroom, which is not true. I'd bet the difference in cargo space is due to raising the floor a bit to have space for the charging cord, not that it's any shorter from tailgate to rear seat.

You want a bigger car, and that's fine, but don't think the Bolt is meaningfully smaller than the Trax because it's not. Hopefully soon we'll have plenty of options in all-electric transportation, so instead of debating whether the one option we have is big enough, we can debate whether to get the compact Bolt or the midsize Colt or the fullsize Dolt, or maybe even something that doesn't end in olt.

 

[oilerlord]

You want a bigger car, and that's fine, but don't think the Bolt is meaningfully smaller than the Trax because it's not. Hopefully soon we'll have plenty of options in all-electric transportation, so instead of debating whether the one option we have is big enough, we can debate whether to get the compact Bolt or the midsize Colt or the fullsize Dolt, or maybe even something that doesn't end in olt.

I stand corrected. I haven't seen a Bolt or Trax in person, so I looked at pictures of both trunks and compared them. The Trax trunk appeared larger (which it is), but I didn't look up specs on rear seat legroom (that is actually smaller by 0.8"). Thanks for clearing that up. I should have used the Equinox as an example with it's 39.9 inches of rear seat legroom and 63.7 cubic feet of overall cargo space.

I want my Cadillac BLR to be about the same size as an Equinox. Hopefully, they can put enough aluminum and carbon fiber into the car to offset the weight of making it larger.

http://www.chevrolet.com/2016-equinox-fuel-efficient-suv.html#DESIGN