Bolt lease numbers for January 2017

[Nagorak]

Keep being bitter about the fact I can actually afford a Bolt and claim the full tax credit and keep crying some more about how GM is stealing "your" tax credit that you couldn't even claim fully if you purchase. Guess it's GM's fault you don't make enough money to claim the full credit too.

I'm playing the smallest violin in the world right now.

The setup of the tax credit is pretty bad. Is there anyone who supports EVs who disagrees with that? What sense does it make to provide a tax credit that only helps those with higher incomes? Those with lower incomes who actually need the credit more get the short end of the stick.

We want EVs to be affordable for everyone, right? Not just for people with high incomes.

 

[WetEV]

The setup of the tax credit is pretty bad. Is there anyone who supports EVs who disagrees with that? What sense does it make to provide a tax credit that only helps those with higher incomes? Those with lower incomes who actually need the credit more get the short end of the stick.

We want EVs to be affordable for everyone, right? Not just for people with high incomes.

The point to the tax credit is to get enough EVs produced to drive the cost down so that the tax credit can go away.

For a simpler example, think about the LED light bulb. At first, in 2008, the cost was over $200, the colors were poor, and the efficiency wasn't as good as later. Even with subsidies, only place that made sense to install was the "crazy hard to change the bulb" places, or big vibration problem places, or look at me I'm so cool I've got an LED light bulb. Mostly people that would dare to spend that kind of money on a light bulb had to be well off. What if the darn thing died in a month? A rich person can take that risk. A poor person can't. In 2010, cost was under $40. In 2014 cost was $12. As the volume cranked up, without subsidy, the price is now down in $2 range. Everyone can afford. But you have to sell the expensive, not as good of quality, first items to get to volume production.

The point to the subsidies for LED bulbs is to get enough LED light bulbs produced to drive the cost down so that the subsidies can go away.

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-461160-Equivalent-Daylight-16-Pack/dp/B01CAL1956/

The projected cost of a BEV in 2025 is less than an ICE in 2025. That wouldn't be the case with no subsidy. It would take much longer, if it happened at all.

 

[marshallinwa]

Keep being bitter about the fact I can actually afford a Bolt and claim the full tax credit and keep crying some more about how GM is stealing "your" tax credit that you couldn't even claim fully if you purchase. Guess it's GM's fault you don't make enough money to claim the full credit too.

I'm playing the smallest violin in the world right now.

The setup of the tax credit is pretty bad. Is there anyone who supports EVs who disagrees with that? What sense does it make to provide a tax credit that only helps those with higher incomes? Those with lower incomes who actually need the credit more get the short end of the stick.

We want EVs to be affordable for everyone, right? Not just for people with high incomes.

I don't consider $76,834 for a married couple or $59,582 for a single person to be high income, certainly not on the West coast.

If you are flipping burgers for minimum wage, then perhaps the best use of one's money is to use it to learn a skill that employer's are willing to pay a higher wage for, not buying a new car.

Secondly, some of the cheapest, low mileage used cars are EVs.

Thirdly, there are retired folks who have a 401k that can be converted to to a Roth IRA to use up that tax credit.

 

[WetEV]

I don't consider $76,834 for a married couple or $59,582 for a single person to be high income, certainly not on the West coast.

Well above median income. 50% of households make less $55,000 or less.

Secondly, some of the cheapest, low mileage used cars are EVs.

If you are short of funds, usually a good used car is the cheapest choice. This is a good point.

 

[tedkidd]

That people under $50k a year can't benefit from this credit creates a MAJOR problem not yet acknowledged. The tax credit accelerates depreciation of these vehicles. This is fairly obvious economics. A slightly used EV has a small amount of natural depreciation PLUS the tax credit.

Put another way, as soon as the car drives off the lot there is no market for the car that doesn't assume the tax credit. In an unconstrained market someone buying a $77,000 Tesla is extremely unlikely to get above $70k for the car - they market will simply go get a new one. So the tax credit on these cars creates an automatic reduction in value. The credit instantly reduces the car's value in the market by an additional $7500 whether the individual receives the $7500 or not. Incentives are supposed to be market lubricants, so those that create clear and hidden traps create market friction, exactly the opposite of what they are intended to do.

And the manufacturers, by putting a finger on the scale through leasing deals, are being abusive towards this more financially vulnerable group.

If you CAN'T get the tax credit buying one of these cars means you experience a capital loss that those who CAN get the credit don't experience. Point being, this tax credit creates an insidious wealth stealing barrier for exactly the people who can't afford to have wealth stolen from them.

When the tax credit goes away it will have a fairly quick and direct effect on the used car market.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Keep being bitter about the fact I can actually afford a Bolt and claim the full tax credit and keep crying some more about how GM is stealing "your" tax credit that you couldn't even claim fully if you purchase. Guess it's GM's fault you don't make enough money to claim the full credit too.

I'm playing the smallest violin in the world right now.

I'm not bitter at all. Why would I be? I'm not the one getting screwed. And frankly, I couldn't care less what you think. I don't really value the opinions of a fanboy. If you want to support a corporation more than your fellow customer, be our guest but you won't be garnering any sympathy from anyone who has have a brain.

Oh and I can afford one....you wishing I couldn't is a good way to conflate your ego I suppose. I just choose not to get screwed.

Enjoy overpaying for your Bolt Maybe I'll pick one up in a few months at a price you wish you could have had. :mrgreen:

Yeah, me too. I can easily pay cash. Mute point as I have a model 3 reservation at 46,000 (drove to Cleveland), and another at 128,000 (post reveal), so probably not getting a Bolt. It's the cost of ownership I'm trying to fully get my head around and Jupiter and Whitney have been helpful.

I have a Smart for $150 a month, and was able to land (for a friend) a $49,000 Mercedes B for $210 a month (stale inventory deal JUST after getting my Smart meters and before I realized I'd be dumping my TDI), so these discussions of $4-500 seem like Chevy is giving people an a$$ing.

Wow you were able to get a B-class for that little??? How much down if I may ask? And from whom?? Our other car (a C-250) is coming up for lease end and we need to replace that as well as my Spark EV. My wife is considering a B-class but I'm trying to sway her away from it as it has somewhat limited range and no range extender. But still it's a nice car if not particularly good looking.

 

[tedkidd]

I'm not bitter at all. Why would I be? I'm not the one getting screwed. And frankly, I couldn't care less what you think. I don't really value the opinions of a fanboy. If you want to support a corporation more than your fellow customer, be our guest but you won't be garnering any sympathy from anyone who has have a brain.

Oh and I can afford one....you wishing I couldn't is a good way to conflate your ego I suppose. I just choose not to get screwed.

Enjoy overpaying for your Bolt Maybe I'll pick one up in a few months at a price you wish you could have had. :mrgreen:

Yeah, me too. I can easily pay cash. Mute point as I have a model 3 reservation at 46,000 (drove to Cleveland), and another at 128,000 (post reveal), so probably not getting a Bolt. It's the cost of ownership I'm trying to fully get my head around and Jupiter and Whitney have been helpful.

I have a Smart for $150 a month, and was able to land (for a friend) a $49,000 Mercedes B for $210 a month (stale inventory deal JUST after getting my Smart meters and before I realized I'd be dumping my TDI), so these discussions of $4-500 seem like Chevy is giving people an a$$ing.

Wow you were able to get a B-class for that little??? How much down if I may ask? And from whom?? Our other car (a C-250) is coming up for lease end and we need to replace that as well as my Spark EV. My wife is considering a B-class but I'm trying to sway her away from it as it has somewhat limited range and no range extender. But still it's a nice car if not particularly good looking.

$1000 down iirc. It was a stale 2014 in 2015. They were desperate to broom it. I almost took it, but at the time that would have made a THIRD car for me. Since I drove my Jetta 8000 a year (which includes two 4500 mile trips to Jackson Wyoming) I really only want to have 1 car. The Smart replaced a neighborhood electric, and I didn't realize it would be a 90% transportation solution allowing me to dump the Jetta.

 

[JupiterMoon]

The setup of the tax credit is pretty bad. Is there anyone who supports EVs who disagrees with that? What sense does it make to provide a tax credit that only helps those with higher incomes? Those with lower incomes who actually need the credit more get the short end of the stick.

We want EVs to be affordable for everyone, right? Not just for people with high incomes.

It's not just about high or low incomes...it's also about the principle. And yes you are 100% correct. EV adoption has a steep uphill climb to perform. This industry doesn't need corporate hurdles and financial shenanigans performed by bean counter drones to derail it.

It's amazing the difference in service and professionalism between brands. So since we are shopping for two vehicles in the next few months, I've been hitting up dealers early to feel things out.

My wife wants an i3. I would like a Bolt but not if I'm going to need Vaseline. I called BMW of Valencia yesterday and the level of professionalism from the salesman was astounding. Not only did he actually know about the product he was selling, he gave me a complete run-down of costs, fees, etc and my lease calculations were spot-on with his. No questions, no issues, no debates. He even encouraged me to wait as January is a terrible month to lease/buy.

I've called 4 different Chevy dealers for the Bolt. Every single one of them was playing head games...one expecting me to pay $600 with $4000 down lol. But that aside, it was incredible how ignorant they were of the product they are selling. And how little they knew about financing, leasing, how to calculate things, what specials were able, the core details and numbers. It felt as though I was a B-movie about sleazy car salesmen.

I talked to someone at Chevy Valencia 3 times....3 times...he took my number three times and my email. He stated he'd back to me in 20 minutes with some numbers (every time...that was a week ago. Lol.

I've a few months before we have to turn in the vehicles so I'm in no rush. But man...what a difference. And how sad for Chevy. The Bolt is a good product but the service and professionalism is pathetic.

 

[JupiterMoon]

$1000 down iirc. It was a stale 2014 in 2015. They were desperate to broom it. I almost took it, but at the time that would have made a THIRD car for me. Since I drove my Jetta 8000 a year (which includes two 4500 mile trips to Jackson Wyoming) I really only want to have 1 car. The Smart replaced a neighborhood electric, and I didn't realize it would be a 90% transportation solution allowing me to dump the Jetta.

Have you considered the 2016 Spark EV? They are giving them away.

 

[tedkidd]

The setup of the tax credit is pretty bad. Is there anyone who supports EVs who disagrees with that? What sense does it make to provide a tax credit that only helps those with higher incomes? Those with lower incomes who actually need the credit more get the short end of the stick.

We want EVs to be affordable for everyone, right? Not just for people with high incomes.

It's not just about high or low incomes...it's also about the principle. And yes you are 100% correct. EV adoption has a steep uphill climb to perform. This industry doesn't need corporate hurdles and financial shenanigans performed by bean counter drones to derail it.

It's amazing the difference in service and professionalism between brands. So since we are shopping for two vehicles in the next few months, I've been hitting up dealers early to feel things out.

My wife wants an i3. I would like a Bolt but not if I'm going to need Vaseline. I called BMW of Valencia yesterday and the level of professionalism from the salesman was astounding. Not only did he actually know about the product he was selling, he gave me a complete run-down of costs, fees, etc and my lease calculations were spot-on with his. No questions, no issues, no debates. He even encouraged me to wait as January is a terrible month to lease/buy.

I've called 4 different Chevy dealers for the Bolt. Every single one of them was playing head games...one expecting me to pay $600 with $4000 down lol. But that aside, it was incredible how ignorant they were of the product they are selling. And how little they knew about financing, leasing, how to calculate things, what specials were able, the core details and numbers. It felt as though I was a B-movie about sleazy car salesmen.

I talked to someone at Chevy Valencia 3 times....3 times...he took my number three times and my email. He stated he'd back to me in 20 minutes with some numbers (every time...that was a week ago. Lol.

I've a few months before we have to turn in the vehicles so I'm in no rush. But man...what a difference. And how sad for Chevy. The Bolt is a good product but the service and professionalism is pathetic.

At one point (in 2014 iirc) BMW had a sub $200 month lease for their salespeople. That one move had an indelible impact on their customer experience. For more on the customer experience issue, check out this great report done by Sierra Club. Likely mirrors your experience...

http://bit.ly/EVsalesFail

It almost a hobby of mine to test drive these cars. I have even done videos (using Google glass) and written about it (Cleantechnica).

 

[tedkidd]

The setup of the tax credit is pretty bad. Is there anyone who supports EVs who disagrees with that? What sense does it make to provide a tax credit that only helps those with higher incomes? Those with lower incomes who actually need the credit more get the short end of the stick.

We want EVs to be affordable for everyone, right? Not just for people with high incomes.

It's not just about high or low incomes...it's also about the principle. And yes you are 100% correct. EV adoption has a steep uphill climb to perform. This industry doesn't need corporate hurdles and financial shenanigans performed by bean counter drones to derail it.

It's amazing the difference in service and professionalism between brands. So since we are shopping for two vehicles in the next few months, I've been hitting up dealers early to feel things out.

My wife wants an i3. I would like a Bolt but not if I'm going to need Vaseline. I called BMW of Valencia yesterday and the level of professionalism from the salesman was astounding. Not only did he actually know about the product he was selling, he gave me a complete run-down of costs, fees, etc and my lease calculations were spot-on with his. No questions, no issues, no debates. He even encouraged me to wait as January is a terrible month to lease/buy.

I've called 4 different Chevy dealers for the Bolt. Every single one of them was playing head games...one expecting me to pay $600 with $4000 down lol. But that aside, it was incredible how ignorant they were of the product they are selling. And how little they knew about financing, leasing, how to calculate things, what specials were able, the core details and numbers. It felt as though I was a B-movie about sleazy car salesmen.

I talked to someone at Chevy Valencia 3 times....3 times...he took my number three times and my email. He stated he'd back to me in 20 minutes with some numbers (every time...that was a week ago. Lol.

I've a few months before we have to turn in the vehicles so I'm in no rush. But man...what a difference. And how sad for Chevy. The Bolt is a good product but the service and professionalism is pathetic.

At one point (in 2014 iirc) BMW had a sub $200 month lease for their salespeople. That one move had an indelible impact on their customer experience. For more on the customer experience issue, check out this great report done by Sierra Club. Likely mirrors your experience...

http://bit.ly/EVsalesFail

It almost a hobby of mine to test drive these cars. I have even done videos (using Google glass) and written about it (Cleantechnica).

Regarding Spark EV, I live in Upstate NY. We don't get all the cars. I'd love to try that, and the fiat, but they aren't here. :|

 

[phil0909]

And not only are you comfortable telling others what they should and shouldn't spend money on, you apparently judge people's importance and value based upon their income.

Let them eat cake.

 

[JupiterMoon]

And not only are you comfortable telling others what they should and shouldn't spend money on, you apparently judge people's importance and value based upon their income.

Let them eat cake.

LOL :mrgreen:

 

[JupiterMoon]

At one point (in 2014 iirc) BMW had a sub $200 month lease for their salespeople. That one move had an indelible impact on their customer experience. For more on the customer experience issue, check out this great report done by Sierra Club. Likely mirrors your experience...

http://bit.ly/EVsalesFail

It almost a hobby of mine to test drive these cars. I have even done videos (using Google glass) and written about it (Cleantechnica).

Nice man! I'd love to write and blog about that stuff. I'll read that report.

 

[tedkidd]

Here you go, more stuff you might find interesting:

Mercedes BMW review - http://bit.ly/CleantechnicaMercBReview - you may not like my opinion here. I agree BMW has highest likelihood of a good sales experience, but I'm now a big fan of the car. Too many small design failures, and the car is WAYYYY overpriced. (go CPO tesla instead...)

Google Glass Video - http://bit.ly/BMWi3testdrivevid - The car was fun to drive. Glass ran out of battery before B test drive.
Later B video here - http://bit.ly/MercBglass - I really really love this car, but I have Mercedes bias. My favorite personal car was an E class CDI. Very fast, comfortable, and 35 mpg.

My nervous first experience with Autopilot - http://bit.ly/TeslaAPthruGlass

After gaining some experience with Autopilot - http://bit.ly/AutopilotEAve

2013 Trip over Teton Pass - http://bit.ly/1rkouyN - logging/understanding Regen
Photos of Teton Pass - http://bit.ly/gTeslaTetonPass - used range and odometer reading pictures to understand energy use/recovery...

 

[JupiterMoon]

Here you go, more stuff you might find interesting:

Mercedes BMW review - http://bit.ly/CleantechnicaMercBReview - you may not like my opinion here. I agree BMW has highest likelihood of a good sales experience, but I'm now a big fan of the car. Too many small design failures, and the car is WAYYYY overpriced. (go CPO tesla instead...)

Google Glass Video - http://bit.ly/BMWi3testdrivevid - The car was fun to drive. Glass ran out of battery before B test drive.
Later B video here - http://bit.ly/MercBglass - I really really love this car, but I have Mercedes bias. My favorite personal car was an E class CDI. Very fast, comfortable, and 35 mpg.

My nervous first experience with Autopilot - http://bit.ly/TeslaAPthruGlass

After gaining some experience with Autopilot - http://bit.ly/AutopilotEAve

2013 Trip over Teton Pass - http://bit.ly/1rkouyN - logging/understanding Regen
Photos of Teton Pass - http://bit.ly/gTeslaTetonPass - used range and odometer reading pictures to understand energy use/recovery...

Interesting I have the same gripes about the i3 myself. The biggest gripe I have with that car is that the regen is only one level. It's very aggressive all the time. There is no way to change it. That gets really tiring when on the freeway or when you just want to drive in a relaxed, non-regenerative way.

The B-Class feels outdated tech-wise but is a bigger, more luxurious car than the i3. The i3 feels nimble and sporty in comparison but not as upscale like a Benz. I frankly don't like MB though. I can't wait to get rid of our Benz. It guzzles fuel, has rattles all over the place, and Benz nickles and dimes you to death when returning the car.

Can you really get 120 miles on the B-class? If so, perhaps that's not so bad. My wife would be driving that most of the time and she hardly breaks

I'm hoping the Bolt spurs other car makers to hustle in bringing out EVs of their own. It's time already...let them get with the program.