What's with all the Tesla Fans anti-Bolt anger?

[ziv]

I'll be honest - I can't afford a Model S P90D and I'm slightly bitter
However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't consider the Tesla Model 3 when it comes out...

But how come everywhere there are discussions of the Bolt EV online there is a bunch of commenters complaining about GM not being committed to EVs? And how they won't buy one because the Model 3 is 'way more compelling' and tech-savvy blah blah then the Bolt?

GM went from 0 to a 200-mile EV in a very short time with the Bolt, and it'll be here at least a year ahead of the Model 3... regardless of your viewpoint, you gotta respect that.
And sure, they've said production will be 30,000 vehicles the first year, but why couldn't they scale up to 200,000 that year if they had to? Ford built 400,000 Mustangs the first year because demand was WAY higher than expected

 

[Anonymous]

I think the thought is that since GM doesn't make it's own batteries, but Tesla does, Tesla is more invested in EVs and seems to have more interest in them succeeding (they never seem to note that Tesla started as an EV only company, so of course they have more interest. they are less flexible at adapting to fuel cell, natural gas, or whatever may be the next big thing in the future).

However, what I always say, is that if Tesla and Panasonic can ramp up their battery production, why can't LG do the same thing for Chevrolet electric vehicles? I seem to remember they are building out extra factories somewhere too...

 

[robot]

My 'plan' is to reserve a Model 3 on the 31st at 10am (then reconsider when I see the reveal a few hours later)

After that, I'll wait and see when it's possible to actually order/get delivery of a Model 3.

In the meantime, I 'plan' to buy a Chevrolet Bolt EV later this year, and drive it until my option for a Model 3 happens. At that point I'll be able to determine if it's worth switching over or not. There is still much we don't know about the 3... and seeing it next week may not give us enough information either.

 

[user 124]

GM is taking the mystique out of electric cars. They are a big auto company (part of the establishment) who has been very upfront in their commitment to EVs. They also convey information in a traditional way (established auto shows, press releases, not tweets) and are being very transparent about the development and production of the Bolt. You can bet that they will deliver the cars when promised too. I suspect that some people are a little miffed at GM for making a nice affordable electric car that anybody can go buy at their local dealership. No 'reveal' events, no reservations that take years to mature, not much guessing about what the cxar will be like. They are treating electric cars just like other cars - the nerve! I think that it is very cool myself.... I don't need or want my car to be a fetish object.

 

[michael]

The Tesla people with their "Elon says...".

Barf

 

[ziv]

But wait - Tesla is the only company with a battery factory of their own, so how on earth will any other vehicle manufacturer be able to compete in the electric vehicle arena?

Well at least it's good to know I'm not the only non-all-things-Tesla. I like the Model S, I think Tesla has done a great job, but there is room in the market for multiple players and I really hand it to GM for the speed at which they've moved the Bolt from concept to reality!

 

[Anonymous]

Pre-post confession : We own a Tesla Model S and a Smart ED.

GM has made the following "mistakes" in their approach to wooing people like me, true EV believers:

1. GM crushed the EV1 and was a driving force (along with Toyota) to getting California laws pushed back so they could build 10 more years of gas guzzling trucks/cars.

2. GM refuse to invest seriously in public charging. Their dealerships have low power plugs that are generally (via plugshare reports and my own experience) denied for non-GM owners. GM recently stated that they will not assist/fund higher power charging rollouts.

3. GM targets Tesla by funding (campaign donations, lawers) anti-Tesla laws in multiple states. This is completely against fair competition, and speaks to their underlying unfairness in business practices.

4. GM lobbies governments to reduce rebates for Tesla, while increasing them for their own cars. See latest Ontario rebate fracas.

5. GM spends marketing money on anti-EV ads for their Volt, which seem ridiculous on the face of their own EV plans.


Meanwhile, having driven a first generation Volt, my family were very impressed with the design and implementation of the EV + range extending technology. To bad GM saddled it in a too small for a family vehicle.

We decided to spend substantially more than we've ever spent on a car for our Tesla Model S to support the mission of Tesla and what they are doing in terms of marketing electric vehicles as better than gas in every way.

Going to put down a deposit at 10AM on the 31st to continue supporting Tesla.

That said, I do recommend the Volt and will likely test drive and recommend the Bolt to people I talk to about EV's. I am not anti-GM, I simply am not willing to "give them a pass" for their poor sportsmanship. Sometimes "the way you play the game matters".

My 2c.

 

[DucRider]

I think the thought is that since GM doesn't make it's own batteries, but Tesla does....

Tesla does not make it's own batteries. Even when the Gigafactory comes online, it will be in partnership with Panasonic who is a major investor in the project. IIRC Panasonic will essentially have a factory within a factory and produce the batteries that Tesla will then utilize in the manufacturing of the battery packs for the cars, Powerwalls, etc.

The Model 3 is still very much vaporware and will not be an option when my current lease is up. Even if (for the first time ever) Tesla is on schedule with their production announcements, it will be at least a year and a half behind the Bolt, and very likely running into the phase out of the Fed Tax Credit (which is likely for GM around the same time Tesla starts to deliver the Model 3).

So the big advantage GM has is a product they can actually deliver. No "Give me $1000 now and I'll let you know later the exact specs of the car. Oh, and by the way, the order in which you sign up with your $1000 has little bearing on when you get your car. IF you own a Tesla currently, IF you live on the West Coast of the US and IF you order the right option configuration, you will be near the front of the queue."

I suspect the radically different way they have to handle production of the Model 3 to meet the price point they have announced will result in delays similar to the delays on the Model X caused by the Falcon wing doors. In other words, first Model 3's in 2019 or later.

As far as charging networks go, I think the Supercharger network will be strained (further than it already is in some areas) if the Model 3 is given access and thousands more cars are trying to use the limited number of charging stations. And when more than 1 Tesla is charging, the charging rate is split between them so they are not getting the full (~120kW) charge rate.

GM should certainly rethink the 50kW CCS and equip it for 100kW (like the IONIQ). I don't expect (or want) GM to own, provide, and maintain a public charging network. Public charging needs to be subsidized by someone, and the economics are very poor. If you install a $50K DCQC with an expected life of 5 years, it needs to do $10K a year (or ~$30/day) over and above the cost of electricity, maintenance and billing just to break even. Anyone want to buy and install any? Or a few thousand?

The ones BMW is subsidizing are 24kW, which is basically useless if your looking at all day travel. They are cheaper, but so what? I do expect costs to drop rapidly and we will see a substantial CCS network in the future.

Right now the advantage appears to be Tesla's for Quick Charging, but what the situation will be when you can actually order a Model 3 and take delivery in a reasonable time may be a very different scenario.

The chest pounding by some is no different than any other car/motorcycle/vacuum cleaner forum...."What I have chosen is the BEST brand/model/color and any other choice is WRONG and you are to be despised for even thinking that something else might be better for your circumstances!!!!"

ANY EV that is purchased instead of an ICE is a win, and it's not "One size fits all". The market penetration of EV's is so small that there is more than enough room for all the manufacturers to strain their production capabilities. Choice is good.

As a side note, I seriously doubt whether the Model 3 would be on it's current announced time schedule without the pressure put on by GM with the Bolt, so even die hard Tesla fans should thank GM for getting them their Model 3 sooner.

 

[jas]

Well said DucRider.

 

[ssspinball]

SmartElectric got it most accurate. GM doesn't want to play fair and simply let the best product win. They deserve the scorn they get for those anticompetitive actions. Completely un-American and frankly shouldn't be legal.

Anyway, I say let the market speak.

And Tesla feeling pressure by GM? Cmon really? They have 232k reaervations for the Model 3 right now. GM is targeting 30k sales of the Bolt per year. Who is pressuring who?

I am not anti-GM either. We have one in the garage now and owned many previously, but let's not stick our hands in our ears and yell "LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU!" when the bad actions by GM come home to roost.

 

[DucRider]

SmartElectric got it most accurate. GM doesn't want to play fair and simply let the best product win. They deserve the scorn they get for those anticompetitive actions. Completely un-American and frankly shouldn't be legal.

Anyway, I say let the market speak.

And Tesla feeling pressure by GM? Cmon really? They have 232k reaervations for the Model 3 right now. GM is targeting 30k sales of the Bolt per year. Who is pressuring who?

I am not anti-GM either. We have one in the garage now and owned many previously, but let's not stick our hands in our ears and yell "LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU!" when the bad actions by GM come home to roost.

What has GM done that is un-American and should be illegal? Although your post is devoid of facts and inflammatory, I'm assuming you're talking about them supporting legislation to prevent direct sales by auto manufacturers. Probably in one of the publicized instances in Indiana and or Michigan.
What, specifically, have they done that should be illegal? Writing a letter to elected representatives expressing their point of view?
Pick up a book on the Constitution and study it before you pick up a flag and start waving it around shouting "Un-American". Expressing an opinion to elected representatives is part of the very foundation upon which this country is built.
Should the legislators Michigan or Indiana be arrested for supporting a law you don't agree with? From their point of view, maybe 2% of their constituents will buy a Tesla, while maybe 50% or better are directly or indirectly supported by GM assembly plant jobs. It could very well be political suicide to speak out against such laws. Should they (ethically) refuse to support a law that is in restraint of trade? Sure. But in reality they likely won't.
Here's where we get back to the book on the Constitution. The Federal Government is set up with three branches with "checks and balances" - in this case the Judicial branch should overturn laws that unjustly restrain trade. Plus, the FTC needs to follow their charter and step in with more than their opinion and take action against the twisting of franchise protection laws (which are in place for a very good reason).
If my assumption about what you claim should be illegal is wrong, I'd be glad to hear about any actions by GM that you believe we should pass laws about to make illegal. Writing to the Legislature is not one of them.

And yes, the market will indeed tell. Tesla has sold <100K cars in the US in it's entire existence. How long will it take them to produce the 232K? When will they be able to start? I wish them well and hope they get it off the ground at least somewhere near the "end of 2017" projection, but even Elon did not look very confident as he made that statement at the reveal. I'm looking forward to buying a Model 3 when they become available.

As Tesla grows and volumes are increasing, they are already starting to depart form the shopping mall "boutique" sales model. They are opening stand alone facilities (some even have inventory like a dealer!) and applying for dealers licenses in some States. When the Model 3 hits full steam, they will likely reduce the "build to order" business model even further and produce cars for "stock" Ours is an impatient culture looking for instant gratification and for Tesla to truly penetrate the mass market, waiting months (or years) for a car will not further their cause.

 

[Anonymous]

The opportunity to own a Model 3 any time in the next 5 years depends on putting down a reservation on the car. 250000 people are already in the queue, and it's entirely possible one million will be in the reservation list before the first car comes off the line.

I could care less what GM does now, the rabble have spoken, 250000 reservations is not a poke in the eye, it's much much more. Fortunately for GM, they will be able to sell perhaps 40000 Bolts before the Model 3 tsunami hits, that should comfort the blow a bit...

 

[ssspinball]

Duc, GM's actions have spoken. You can say what they are doing is all legal and fine, but that doesn't make it good for consumers or fair trade. It's slimy and gross. Lots of companies play slimy and gross games, but that doesn't mean some people don't see it and got with their wallets based on such behavior.

 

[DucRider]

Duc, GM's actions have spoken. You can say what they are doing is all legal and fine, but that doesn't make it good for consumers or fair trade. It's slimy and gross. Lots of companies play slimy and gross games, but that doesn't mean some people don't see it and got with their wallets based on such behavior.

Slimy and gross is very different from un-American and illegal.
I never gave an opinion one way or another on GM's actions, tactics or point of view. I only objected to your rhetoric and attack on the principals that are the foundation of this country.

The opportunity to own a Model 3 any time in the next 5 years depends on putting down a reservation on the car. 250000 people are already in the queue, and it's entirely possible one million will be in the reservation list before the first car comes off the line.

I could care less what GM does now, the rabble have spoken, 250000 reservations is not a poke in the eye, it's much much more. Fortunately for GM, they will be able to sell perhaps 40000 Bolts before the Model 3 tsunami hits, that should comfort the blow a bit...

I think it unlikely that it will reach 1 million reservation prior to the firs car being delivered unless deliveries are delayed further than anyone anticipates. If all those reservations are indeed converted to orders.

I do however agree that It is extremely likely that they will not be able to produce 250K Model 3's within 5 years.

Tesla has no experience producing anything near the volume that will be required for the Model 3. Their entire production volume in 2015 was just a bit over 50K vehicles, and that was a 52% year-over-year increase.

They also MUST get a handle on the plague of QC issues and prevent them from affecting the Model 3.

There is also the possibility that we may never see the $35K version of the Model 3 enter production. When the Model S was announced, they proclaimed "Starting at $50K". This was for the 40kWh version that was never produced in volume. In reality, they prioritized production to the higher spec/cost/profitable versions (sound familiar) and, since few 40kWh versions were sold, killed it on April 1, 2013 due to "lack of demand".

If you were Tesla and had 250K reservations of which half or more were willing to pay $45K to $50K for a higher profit version, which would you build first?

I know Elon promised it would be made, but then again he's "misspoken" before.

BTW, you might rethink using rabble when referring to Model 3 reservation holders: "ordinary people, especially when regarded as socially inferior or uncouth"

As for GM and the Bolt, they could easily sell 100K Bolts before the Model 3 starts to trickle out of Fremont. No one in their right mind would suggest that Tesla will start production at full throttle with no ramp-up. It's not out of the realm of possibility that 50K or more Model 3 reservation holders buy/lease a Bolt while waiting.

 

[Devin]

I think it's worth pointing out in the discussion of consumer ethics, that Tesla is no saint either. They do everything they can to prevent owners from performing their own repairs to their vehicles or accessing service manuals (source). The fact that they do not operate using dealerships means they can skirt regulations like the Right to Repair law in Massachusetts. Personally, I think this is equally anti-consumer as GM's opposition to Tesla shunning the dealership model and is one of the big reasons that I'm hesitant to purchase a Tesla vehicle.

My experience with the RAV4 EV has indicated that Tesla's reliability is below average and this is supported by Consumer Reports. Without Tesla-sanctioned repair and service infrastructure to back up the product it's an absolutely miserable experience for the consumer, which you can easily see if you check out the RAV4 EV forums where people having been waiting 6 months for drive unit replacements under warranty among other issues.

There are some things Tesla does very right, namely the supercharging network, but they aren't perfect and their hostility toward non-Tesla repair and maintenance work is worrying.

In the interest of full disclosure I did reserve a Model 3 (online when reservation opened, so I'm around 100,000 in line), but I still lean heavily toward the Bolt especially since it will be available much sooner. I think the Bolt is a more practical car (hatchback vs trunk) and with the expansion of CCS charging availability I think the car's long-range prospects are decent. I hope that the Model 3 will push GM to change their minds and invest in installing 24/7 CCS infrastructure at dealerships.

Either way, choice is good for consumers and right now only GM and Tesla are bringing us choice in affordable 200+ mile range EVs. So they both earn points for that.

 

[Anonymous]

Good luck to GM. They will need it.

The Bolt will be battery production constrained to no more than 30000 cars per year based on published production information provided by GM via the battery plants and agreements with LG Chem.

Let's say Bolt sells 5000 in 2016, 30000 in 2017 and 5000 for early 2018 before Model 3 production ramp hits. That's 40000 cars, which is what I stated above.

GM will need to discount heavily to stay in the market once the 3 is available, as potential buyers wont buy a slower, more expensive product which doesn't have a comprehensive and free fast charging network for long distance driving.

 

[DucRider]

The Bolt will be battery production constrained to no more than 30000 cars per year based on published production information provided by GM via the battery plants and agreements with LG Chem.

Nope. Just a false rumor that appears to trace back to Reuters (known for anti-EV bias). GM has stated repeatedly that production capacity exceeds 50,00/year and will not be production constrained.

... early 2018 before Model 3 production ramp hits.

We can all hope, and there IS a first time for everything. Maybe Tesla will be able to meet a production goal/deadline?

GM will need to discount heavily to stay in the market once the 3 is available, as potential buyers wont buy a slower, more expensive product which doesn't have a comprehensive and free fast charging network for long distance driving.

Maybe, but I doubt it. The Bolt is likely to be the only sub $40K option for a year or two AFTER Tesla actually starts producing the Model 3. with 300K orders and Tesla's policy (and statement) that higher optioned cars will be built and delivered first, how long will it take to get thru the backlog to produce the base model?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

GM will need to discount heavily to stay in the market once the 3 is available, as potential buyers wont buy a slower, more expensive product which doesn't have a comprehensive and free fast charging network for long distance driving.

Maybe, but I doubt it. The Bolt is likely to be the only sub $40K option for a year or two AFTER Tesla actually starts producing the Model 3. with 300K orders and Tesla's policy (and statement) that higher optioned cars will be built and delivered first, how long will it take to get thru the backlog to produce the base model?

What DucRider said. Also, let's not forget the difference in demographic between Tesla buyers and Chevy buyers. The former are (for the next few years at least) comfortable putting down a $1000 deposit on a car they have never seen in the flesh, let alone driven themselves. The latter are much more frequently the type who walk into a dealership and look at the cars in the show room. They aren't set on EV per se, but may be convinced that 200 miles could work, and an EV could save them money. Even more than that, in a year from now, someone will be able to sit in a Bolt and take it for a spin. Those who have never driven EV before will be amazed at the smooth silent performance, and be sold.

 

[ziv]

And let's not forget that when the Model 3 does come out after 2 years, there's no saying the Bolt EV won't have a revised powertrain or update available?

I can't speak for the Volt, but I thought that the LEAF was only around for 2 years before they upgraded some things.... I tend to get all EVs confused at some point and now I'm starting to doubt my own comment.

Point being that if the Bolt is out in 2016, Model 3 out in 2017, revised Bolt could be 2018, revised Model 3 could be 2019 - they could get into a leapfrog game.

Also, there's the storage/rear-lack-of-hatch discussion still happening for the Model 3. The Bolt is built to be a CUV which is a very popular segment these days. The Model 3 could very well be suited to multi-vehicle families where it's the "small" option in the driveway with a larger vehicle available for hauling a couch

 

[Anonymous]

Good rebuttal points. I am hoping that all OEM's make compelling electric cars.