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iankh

Active member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
43
I've been looking at the Bolt and decided to test drive one yesterday which I probably shouldn't have done because I loved it. I live in Palm Springs and work from home for most of the week. Two days a week I have to be in the office and stay overnight. The total round trip for me is 250 miles, up and down steep hills plus AC is definitely needed during summer months. My biggest fear of course recharging while I'm in Carlsbad. The office park I work in does not have a charging station. There are a couple quite close to my hotel, but I'm not sure exactly how long it would take to charge enough to feel secure for the drive back.

I'm looking for feedback from those who already own a Bolt. This need to recharge while away from home would happen every week. Thanks for advice, feedback, insight or guidance you may be able to offer.
 
iankh said:
The office park I work in does not have a charging station. There are a couple quite close to my hotel...
You might make an inquiry to the hotel to see if they have any plans to install a charger. Some of the hotel chains are starting to do this to attract guests.
 
You can add 50 miles in 12 hours with the regular 120 volt cord that comes with the car.

Now you have enough power to make the round trip with air conditioning.

The car is very efficient at 65 mph or less.
Keep speeds at or under 65 mph the whole trip the first couple of trips. If you have lots of power left then you can speed up a little.
 
gpsman said:
You can add 50 miles in 12 hours with the regular 120 volt cord that comes with the car.

Now you have enough power to make the round trip with air conditioning.

The car is very efficient at 65 mph or less.
Keep speeds at or under 65 mph the whole trip the first couple of trips. If you have lots of power left then you can speed up a little.

Thank you! Do you know how long and how much charge I could get and how long it would take with a level 2 charger? The two charging stations near my hotel claim to be level 2. I think Chargepoint and EVgo?
 
iankh said:
Thank you! Do you know how long and how much charge I could get and how long it would take with a level 2 charger? The two charging stations near my hotel claim to be level 2. I think Chargepoint and EVgo?

There are multiple Chargepoint locations near Carlsbad, but I don't see any inside the town. L2 stations are often 6.6kW or 7.2kW, sometimes 3.3kW, sometimes more but the Bolt only can take 7.2kW, and rarely other values.

Are you perhaps talking about "Hilton Garden Inn Carlsbad Beach"? or "Carlsbad Premium Outlets"?

These are DCQC stations, will charge at "24kW", actually about 22kW or less, or at "50kW", actually at about 45kW or less.

https://www.plugshare.com/#

and

https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point

Pessimist would need 33kWh, making the pessimist assumption that you only get 3 miles per kWh. At 120V, that would be more like 30 hours. Or 11 hours at 3.3kW, or 5 hours at 7.2kW, or a bit over an hour at "24kW", or a bit over a half a hour at "50kW".

Car has 60kWh battery, leaving 10kWh reserve for unforeseen issues.
50kWh + charge = 250 miles / 3 miles per kWh
Charge = 250/3-50
Charge = 33kWh

Realistic, You are likely to get better than 3 miles per kWh. At 4 miles per kWh, you would need about 12 kWh, which would line up with the previous post of 12 hours on 120V 12A "L1". L2 would be around 4 hours at 3.3kW, or 2 hours at 7.2kW. A half hour at "24kW" or about 15 minutes at "50kW".

Charge = 250/4 -50 = 12kWh
 
WetEV said:
iankh said:
Thank you! Do you know how long and how much charge I could get and how long it would take with a level 2 charger? The two charging stations near my hotel claim to be level 2. I think Chargepoint and EVgo?

There are multiple Chargepoint locations near Carlsbad, but I don't see any inside the town. L2 stations are often 6.6kW or 7.2kW, sometimes 3.3kW, sometimes more but the Bolt only can take 7.2kW, and rarely other values.

Are you perhaps talking about "Hilton Garden Inn Carlsbad Beach"? or "Carlsbad Premium Outlets"?

These are DCQC stations, will charge at "24kW", actually about 22kW or less, or at "50kW", actually at about 45kW or less.

https://www.plugshare.com/#

and

https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point

Pessimist would need 33kWh, making the pessimist assumption that you only get 3 miles per kWh. At 120V, that would be more like 30 hours. Or 11 hours at 3.3kW, or 5 hours at 7.2kW, or a bit over an hour at "24kW", or a bit over a half a hour at "50kW".

Car has 60kWh battery, leaving 10kWh reserve for unforeseen issues.
50kWh + charge = 250 miles / 3 miles per kWh
Charge = 250/3-50
Charge = 33kWh

Realistic, You are likely to get better than 3 miles per kWh. At 4 miles per kWh, you would need about 12 kWh, which would line up with the previous post of 12 hours on 120V 12A "L1". L2 would be around 4 hours at 3.3kW, or 2 hours at 7.2kW. A half hour at "24kW" or about 15 minutes at "50kW".

Charge = 250/4 -50 = 12kWh

I appreciate your pessimistic approach. Those are two of the chargers. The one closest to the hotel I stay at is the Hilton Gardens. So, if I understand correctly, I could charge up enough for the return trip in about 45 minutes to a bit over an hour? While I loved the car, I have to consider this very carefully, because it means that after a very long day of work, I'd essentially need to stop, and sit in the car for possibly over an hour while I charge.

I do my weekly trip to Carlsbad tomorrow, I plan to ask if there's an outdoor outlet they would let me plug into..a long shot, but worth asking. However, if they do, that would only be 110V and for about 10 to 12 hours.
 
iankh said:
I appreciate your pessimistic approach. Those are two of the chargers. The one closest to the hotel I stay at is the Hilton Gardens. So, if I understand correctly, I could charge up enough for the return trip in about 45 minutes to a bit over an hour? While I loved the car, I have to consider this very carefully, because it means that after a very long day of work, I'd essentially need to stop, and sit in the car for possibly over an hour while I charge.

I do my weekly trip to Carlsbad tomorrow, I plan to ask if there's an outdoor outlet they would let me plug into..a long shot, but worth asking. However, if they do, that would only be 110V and for about 10 to 12 hours.

The first couple of trips beyond "no worries" range from home are always somewhat scary. And working out how to fit charging into the trip is very worthwhile.

The Hilton Gardens is the Chargepoint 24kW. So why charge at night?

I assume your trip is home (Palm Springs) => work => hotel => home. Is this correct?

You don't need to stay with the car the whole time. Do you now, or could you easily, add a meal stop to the trip? Such as, leave the hotel on the way home, stop for breakfast while the Bolt gets breakfast charge?
 
WetEV said:
iankh said:
I appreciate your pessimistic approach. Those are two of the chargers. The one closest to the hotel I stay at is the Hilton Gardens. So, if I understand correctly, I could charge up enough for the return trip in about 45 minutes to a bit over an hour? While I loved the car, I have to consider this very carefully, because it means that after a very long day of work, I'd essentially need to stop, and sit in the car for possibly over an hour while I charge.

I do my weekly trip to Carlsbad tomorrow, I plan to ask if there's an outdoor outlet they would let me plug into..a long shot, but worth asking. However, if they do, that would only be 110V and for about 10 to 12 hours.

The first couple of trips beyond "no worries" range from home are always somewhat scary. And working out how to fit charging into the trip is very worthwhile.

The Hilton Gardens is the Chargepoint 24kW. So why charge at night?

I assume your trip is home (Palm Springs) => work => hotel => home. Is this correct?

You don't need to stay with the car the whole time. Do you now, or could you easily, add a meal stop to the trip? Such as, leave the hotel on the way home, stop for breakfast while the Bolt gets breakfast charge?

Good question, let me clarify. My weekly routine is Palm Springs => work => hotel => work => home. I stay weekly at a hotel, a La Quinta a few miles away from the Hilton Garden. I've never been to the property, so I will check it out tomorrow. Looking at the map, there's really nothing around there or to walk to.

Another unknown and consideration is heat. At home, our daytime temperatures can get up to 120 during the day in the summer. It starts to cool down a bit after I get over the mountains, but about ½ of my drive goes from hot to extremely hot. I'm not sure how this combo of hills and mountains and heat would impact range. I do know that coming down from the hills and mountains provides an opportunity to regenerate some power.
 
For what it is worth, I saw 3.6-3.7 miles per kWh at 65 mph on flat ground with no wind, no heat, and no AC. Heat is expensive (up to 9 kW) but heated seats use minimal extra power. AC seems to cost about 1 kW.

So a 125 mile trip at 65 mph will probably use around 35 kWh without heat or AC, 37 kWh with AC, and more with heat. Your hills probably will cost more, though you will get some energy back through regen. But you want to find at least 20 kW of recharge at work.

If cold weather is a concern, get one with heated seats.
 
boltage said:
If cold weather is a concern, get one with heated seats.

The model I test drove was a premier. Living where we do, the heated seats and steering wheel are waste, and leather can be uncomfortable. The car we shipped from Chicago when we moved has all of these and I've burnt my legs more than one when it been parked outside. I loved the car and features of the model I drove, but wished it had all the features minus the leather.
 
iankh said:
WetEV said:
The first couple of trips beyond "no worries" range from home are always somewhat scary. And working out how to fit charging into the trip is very worthwhile.

The Hilton Gardens is the Chargepoint 24kW. So why charge at night?

I assume your trip is home (Palm Springs) => work => hotel => home. Is this correct?

You don't need to stay with the car the whole time. Do you now, or could you easily, add a meal stop to the trip? Such as, leave the hotel on the way home, stop for breakfast while the Bolt gets breakfast charge?

Good question, let me clarify. My weekly routine is Palm Springs => work => hotel => work => home. I stay weekly at a hotel, a La Quinta a few miles away from the Hilton Garden. I've never been to the property, so I will check it out tomorrow. Looking at the map, there's really nothing around there or to walk to.

Another unknown and consideration is heat. At home, our daytime temperatures can get up to 120 during the day in the summer. It starts to cool down a bit after I get over the mountains, but about ½ of my drive goes from hot to extremely hot. I'm not sure how this combo of hills and mountains and heat would impact range. I do know that coming down from the hills and mountains provides an opportunity to regenerate some power.

As for location, this hotel?

http://www.lq.com/en/findandbook/hotel-details.san-diego-carlsbad.address.html

An L2 at this hotel would make this trip easy. An L1 might be enough... But I'm pessimistic. There are hotels with L2 around there, but they seem pricier. Still, might mention to this hotel's management that you are thinking about buying a Bolt, and if you do you will be staying someplace with L2 charging... Which they don't have. (Hint Hint...) Hilton Gardens has both L2 and a DCQC, but all that is needed is a reserveable L2. (Hint hint...) I've been staying here regularly for (_fill in time_) and like this hotel, too bad it doesn't have a charging station. (Hint hint...)


By heat you mean how does high outside temperatures impact range? The AC should be fairly low draw, less than 5 kWh over your two hour drive home. Also might be some draw for battery cooling. I don't know how much energy used for battery cooling, and I suspect that no one really knows yet, what to expect on a long drive at 120F. I wouldn't expect it to be large, but I don't know for sure. Has anyone taken a long drive in 120F?

Palm Springs => work => hotel => work => Palm Springs (home)

If you have no charging at the hotel or work, then you likely need to stop at for a charge, hopefully at a DCQC, hopefully at a time and place where you have something else to do. Dinner after work, either day? Breakfast? Lunch? On the road between Carlsbad and Palm Springs?
 
WetEV said:
As for location, this hotel?

http://www.lq.com/en/findandbook/hotel-details.san-diego-carlsbad.address.html

An L2 at this hotel would make this trip easy. An L1 might be enough... But I'm pessimistic. There are hotels with L2 around there, but they seem pricier. Still, might mention to this hotel's management that you are thinking about buying a Bolt, and if you do you will be staying someplace with L2 charging... Which they don't have. (Hint Hint...) Hilton Gardens has both L2 and a DCQC, but all that is needed is a reserveable L2. (Hint hint...) I've been staying here regularly for (_fill in time_) and like this hotel, too bad it doesn't have a charging station. (Hint hint...)


By heat you mean how does high outside temperatures impact range? The AC should be fairly low draw, less than 5 kWh over your two hour drive home. Also might be some draw for battery cooling. I don't know how much energy used for battery cooling, and I suspect that no one really knows yet, what to expect on a long drive at 120F. I wouldn't expect it to be large, but I don't know for sure. Has anyone taken a long drive in 120F?

Palm Springs => work => hotel => work => Palm Springs (home)

If you have no charging at the hotel or work, then you likely need to stop at for a charge, hopefully at a DCQC, hopefully at a time and place where you have something else to do. Dinner after work, either day? Breakfast? Lunch? On the road between Carlsbad and Palm Springs?

Yes, that's the hotel where I stay overnight week in, week out. Nice hotel and they give me an extremely reasonable corporate rate., but then I do give them about 48 room nights a year. The Hilton Gardens is not far away. Just a bummer to have to stop to charge after work. Now if only the La Quinta had charging. Perhaps it's worth a chat with them. They are a franchise property. The owners also own the Ramada next door.
 
Dude-

From my arm chair you only need to put back in about 50 miles.

This is 14 kWh at 3.5 miles per 1 kWh.


You are fine with either of the following:

12 hours or more on a regular 120 volt plug.
(Level 1)

2 hours or more on a 6.6kw Level 2.

40 minutes on a 24kw DCFC Level 3.

20 minutes on a 50kw DCFC Level 3.


IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD THAT SMALL AMOUNT OF TIME- DO NOT BUY THE CAR!!!!
 
gpsman said:
From my arm chair you only need to put back in about 50 miles.

This is 14 kWh at 3.5 miles per 1 kWh.

Optimistically, sure, with little margin. On a good day, warm not cold or hot, no wind or tailwind, new car, no construction/accident detours, no rain, and so on.

Try a stiff headwind. With a steady 20 mile per hour headwind, you would get closer to 2.5 miles per kWh. Would use about 125miles/ 2.5 kWh per mile or 50kWh for the return trip. Would want enough in the battery to do this trip with some margin, and with climate control, and with some battery conditioning allowance. Would like to start with a nearly full battery to avoid stops with such a headwind.

Higher headwinds are possible but unlikely. There are DCQCs along the route, and driving a bit slower may be an option, as traffic often slows down a little with head or cross winds, at least in my experience.

Climate control should be on the close order of 1kW to 2 kW, for 2 hours, for 2kWh to 4kWh. Not huge, not ignorable. I'd expect a similar value for battery conditioning, but my only experience with a TMS was a FFE, and not in 120F conditions, so I'm somewhat guessing here. I've not seen AC working in 120F as well, so that's why I give a wide and probably pessimistic range.

New car: Battery capacity fades with time. Chevy says "Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10% to as much as 40% of capacity over the warranty period." That is "8 years or 100,000 miles" warranty period. I suspect that most cars will be closer to the 10% loss number than the 40% loss number, but some amount of loss needs to be added to the trip plan. What is the trip like when the car is no longer new? Being a pessimist, that headwind would mean that a DCQC stop on the trip would be a requirement. Would that happen once a year, or more often? Would it be OK to add a half hour to the trip home if a stiff headwind was blowing, or would that really really $%*#? OP has to answer that question, I can't.

Rain increases energy use. Hard to give a number, heavy rain is worse, standing water on the road is worse and so on.

A rule of thumb I've been talking about for years is the "No Worries Range". Take the EPA range, multiply by 0.4. As long as your commute is less than this, No Worries. Bad weather, heat, cold, rain, old car, No Worries. Very cold places, will need even more margin, use a somewhat smaller number, depending on how cold. If the commute is a little more than this, "Think About It". You might start to recharge on very bad days as the car gets older, and/or might start to get home with less margin than comfortable. If much larger, don't do it, you are likely to hate it. Sure, I am pessimistic. I think it is better to not get the car, than to get the car and hate the car.

The OP is in the Think About It range, even with a reliable L2 at the hotel. Bolt 238 miles * 0.4 is 95 miles. The good news is that he is thinking about it.

gpsman said:
12 hours or more on a regular 120 volt plug.

Would get about 12kWh into the battery. Sure, the 120V 12A is 1.44kW, but the net into the battery is about 1kW. Not quite enough, would need 14 hours.

gpsman said:
2 hours or more on a 6.6kw Level 2.

40 minutes on a 24kw DCFC Level 3.

20 minutes on a 50kw DCFC Level 3.

Would be close to enough, on a good day, or perhaps just a few minutes more.


gpsman said:
IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD THAT SMALL AMOUNT OF TIME- DO NOT BUY THE CAR!!!!

Shouting at people is usually a bad choice. The OP is trying to see how to fit using a Bolt into his life. A 125 mile one way commute is somewhat marginal. This requires rethinking habits, often not easy. I would suggest trying to reply with reason and compassion.
 
WetEV said:
Shouting at people is usually a bad choice. The OP is trying to see how to fit using a Bolt into his life. A 125 mile one way commute is somewhat marginal. This requires rethinking habits, often not easy. I would suggest trying to reply with reason and compassion.

Thank you. I am indeed trying to understand and figure it all out before I make such an expensive leap. No doubts, I fell in love with the Bolt, but sometimes, one has to be grown-up and not allow emotions to take the helm. The drive is hills and mountains. I know that there will be a toll to pay on the up hill, but regen benefits on the downhill. In summer, I can expect the first 40 to 50 miles to be in temperatures of 110 to 120. I also drive through the windmill farm. The windmills are there for a reason, the first 35 to 40 miles will be in potentially extremely high gusts and head winds. The light up warnings are there on the highway for a reason. The second third will be in temperatures of 90 to 100 and the final third 75 to 90. So, for all year about ⅓ of the drive will be in high winds and from Mid May to late October in extreme heat to realitvely high temperatures.

I realize that I will have to recharge once in Carlsbad. I don't mind investing time. What concerns me is having to do so for hours at a time miles away from my hotel, or the potential for chargers being broken down, and the panic to find a charge so I can get home.

Today, in my economy car, I start out with a full tank and get home with ¼ tank left. If for any reason I need gas, there's lots of it available, even if I have to pay a premium.

What started this was my installation of solar and a current over production of electricity. An EV makes a lot of sense, and as I said, I fell in love with the Bolt. In an ideal world I would rent one and do a test run for a week, including my round trip into the office. Short of being able to do that, I'm trying to understand as much as possible. I hate to see the situation detiorating to using the gas car for the commute and the Bolt becoming the secondary used car. If that were the case, perhaps I would consider a used Leaf of some such car. However, I love the Bolt and need to see if it can be a practical fit for my life and my work.
 
Ideally your best bet is to convince management to install an L2 EVSE at the office. Or give you access to a 120V plug to use while at the office. If you can plug in both days you are at the office, then you should be golden.

Your other option is to have to spend an extra 30 minutes at the outlets before heading home. Plugshare and ChargePoint will tell you in advance if the stations are available or working (especially plugshare). Alternatively, on the day that you stay overnight, head over to the Hilton and get a charge while having dinner there.
 
See if you can get them to install a 220 outlet reserved for your use and buy at portable 220 charger (Turbo Cord or similar). Then you get a dedicated 3 kW charging spot.


If they get an EVSE, pretty soon somone else will show up and you'll be fighting for access. The absolute cheapest way for an employer to provide L2 charging is to simply install an outlet and let the driver take care of getting a portable EVSE>
 
So, I did my weekly 250 mile roundtrip to Carlsbad this week in my little economy car and got 33.4 mpg, driving through a wind farm with strong head and side winds, up hills and up and over 2 mountain passes, my little car huffing and puffing on the extremely steep mountain passes. Not yet summer, but about 1/2 of the trip the external temp was 83 until I got closer to the ocean. The drive gave me a lot to think about.

After work I had to stop at Costco to pick up something, and there parked at the entrance was a Bolt, smiling seductively at me.

There's very little chance of getting an outside socket to plug into at work. I work for a 15 person company in a small office. I could ask the office park owner if they would install an outlet, but it's something I couldn't count on.

I stopped at both charging stations near the hotel I stay at. The closest is 2 miles away from my hotel. Not bad, but only one plug. It is however a Chargepoint DC fast station.

So, on the drive back, up and down hills, through mountain passes I thought some more. My greatest concern is the weekly anxiety of setting out for work with the worry of having to charge up enough to get home. For my personality, there are too many "ifs." What if the Chargepoint is occupied? What if some gas car decided to park in the Chargepoint spot? What if the charger is broken? How much time am I going to have to invest in hunting down a charge?

These concerns would dissipate if charging stations were more ubiquitous and readily available. If my normal commute was only about 100 miles roundtrip I wouldn't be worried, but it isn't. My normal commute is about 10 feet from my bedroom to my office, except for once a week when I do the 250-mile roundtrip for my in-office days. A long road trip is not a once in a while event but weekly.

Ironically it was also this long weekly road trip that made me consider the Bolt to begin with. Aside from the drive to the office I probably drive about a total of 50 miles a week.

No doubts, I loved the Bolt, and it was the first non-Tesla car in a price range and distance range that I could even consider, but the practical grown-up side of me says that the distance and supporting infrastructure is not right for me at this point in time.

I really want to thank everyone who provided feedback and answers it is heartily appreciated. Your insight and answers greatly help me with my investigation and analysis.
 
Why don't you just get/keep a cheap gas car for that once a week trip? I plan on keeping my Volt so that if there is any doubt, I can just take that car. That of course is dependent on how much minimum California insurance would be on the Volt. If it's only a few hundred dollars a year it's worth it not to put those extra miles on the Bolt or worry about charging. My biggest beef with DCFC charging is that in many cases there are only one or two charging stalls. If they're near a shopping mall, as many are, you can get some local idiot who is charging while shopping instead of leaving the stall open for long distance travelers. By way of disclaimer I never charge my Volt at public stations so that they are kept open for people who really need them. I certainly would never plug a Bolt into my two local EVgo DCFC chargers unless it was an emergency.

One other suggestion is to wait a year or two and see where the upcoming VW charging stations will be like and where they are. A final suggestion is to just wait five years until the 3rd Gen Bolt is released (assuming there is one). BEV infrastructure and vehicles are still at the "early adopter" phase. What people really want and need is a BEV with 270-300 miles at a price point that is about 5k less than current models. We're still not there yet.
 
cyaopec said:
wait five years until the 3rd Gen Bolt is released (assuming there is one)

There will not be a 3rd Gen Bolt in five years. I assume you either mean 2nd Gen Bolt or 3rd Gen Volt?

I agree that people are waiting for more range. I disagree on how necessary it is. But that's ok. For those who can live with "only" 200 miles, the prices should come way down. Just look at what has happened with the 100-mile BEVs!
 
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