Owners manual says little about battery care

[oilerlord]

Grandma may not know what 1080p is, but almost everyone under 25 does.

This is the crux of the matter. If you tell grandma that her car takes 15 gallons of fuel and it costs $30 to fill it up, she gets it. If you tell her an EV has a 60kWh battery, and could cost anywhere between $3.00 and $25.00 depending on where you live, and what time of the day you charge your car, you've lost her along with 99% of the car buying public. Does the Bolt require 40 hours, 9 hours, or 45 minutes to charge? Yes. What affect does that have on trip planning (which was never a concern before)? As free & easy as EV's are touted as being, there are aspects of EV ownership that people still need to learn about.

Without a significant catalyst such as EV's being sold at the same price as ICEV's or gasoline at $5.00 per gallon, the point you're missing is that the mass market will continue to buy cars that they understand vs ones that they know little about. Without a catalyst for change, change doesn't happen.

 

[Anonymous]

Complexioty of charging: It is in part true today but it is changing fast.

Once charging infrastructure is there, choosing to drive an electric car is also a choice for :
# a much better drive experience / torque.
# Almost no maintenance. No more fluids to change many times a year.
# The main main point is convenience, you don't have to charge out of home most of the time

 

[DucRider]

Grandma may not know what 1080p is, but almost everyone under 25 does.

This is the crux of the matter. If you tell grandma that her car takes 15 gallons of fuel and it costs $30 to fill it up, she gets it. If you tell her an EV has a 60kWh battery, and could cost anywhere between $3.00 and $25.00 depending on where you live, and what time of the day you charge your car, you've lost her along with 99% of the car buying public. Does the Bolt require 40 hours, 9 hours, or 45 minutes to charge? Yes. What affect does that have on trip planning (which was never a concern before)? As free & easy as EV's are touted as being, there are aspects of EV ownership that people still need to learn about.

Without a significant catalyst such as EV's being sold at the same price as ICEV's or gasoline at $5.00 per gallon, the point you're missing is that the mass market will continue to buy cars that they understand vs ones that they know little about. Without a catalyst for change, change doesn't happen.

I see. That's why everyone still has tube TV's and their cell phones are non-touchscreen flip phones

The Bolt charges overnight without having to go to the gas station....
People got used to making sure to charge their phone, and put up with the spotty cell phone coverage, dropped calls, poor audio quality - all barriers equivalent to the issues some people would have in learning and adapting to an EV.

It costs about $20-25/month to charge my EV and I drive ~1000 miles on that. Grandma can certainly relate to that!
If you only need 12.5 gallons and fuel just went up $.25 and in the winter ICE efficiency goes down 10%, how far can you drive on the $$ you just spent at the pump?

 

[SeanNelson]

If you tell grandma that her car takes 15 gallons of fuel and it costs $30 to fill it up, she gets it. If you tell her an EV has a 60kWh battery, and could cost anywhere between $3.00 and $25.00 depending on where you live, and what time of the day you charge your car, you've lost her along with 99% of the car buying public.

Let's not forget that gas prices also vary depending on where you go and what time of day it is. And, as I discovered on a recent trip to the US, you have to be smart enough to pay close attention to the pump and how the prices are structured. In a lot of states the cheapest gas is only 85 or 86 octane rather than the 87 that most cars require, and a lot of stations charge more if you use a credit card. Both of those invalidate that big "$2.59/gallon" sign that's from miles away.

You can make the marketing of ICE vehicles pretty complicated too, if you want. The secret to EV marketing is to Keep It Simple, Stupid. The people who want more information are perfectly capable of going and ferreting it out themselves.

 

[leodoggie]

I designed and built my own tracking solar array, the autonomous control system has it's own small solar panel and sla rechargeable batteries, after four years of operation I am still learning new things about rechargeable batteries.
Expecting regular folks to understand battery charging is an exercise in futility, but telling them they can charge their car for free by putting solar panels on their roof they will get it.
My solar array has already paid for it's self, and when I get my Bolt I will be adding more panels to accommodate for the extra electricity I will be using to charge it up. The ROI for the new array will be about 2-3 years.
Using solar panels to charge up my Bolt is one the main reasons why I am so excited about the concept of a real long distance EV at an affordable price point.

 

[oilerlord]

People got used to making sure to charge their phone, and put up with the spotty cell phone coverage, dropped calls, poor audio quality - all barriers equivalent to the issues some people would have in learning and adapting to an EV.

I'm trying to come up with reasons why less than 1% of the car buying public choose an electric car. Let's stipulate that they are wonderful machines, for all the reasons you've listed and more. I love mine, you love yours, and people on this board with Bolt orders are excited to take delivery.

You've mentioned time & again that range isn't an issue, price isn't an issue, charging isn't an issue, and that EV's are more reliable than ICEV's and EV's operating costs are lower. If all of that is true, and EV's are superior to ICEV's in practically every way, why are overall sales of EV's less than 1% of the market?

I suggested that a barrier to widespread acceptance could be that people don't understand EV's and/or resist change. People may be staying with gasoline vehicles because that's what they know and are comfortable with. I also suggested that a catalyst of $5.00 gasoline, or EV's that can be bought for the same price as ICEV's may help overcome people's resistance to change, but you don't believe that either.

Clearly, you don't agree but offer no suggestions of your own.

 

[oilerlord]

Expecting regular folks to understand battery charging is an exercise in futility, but telling them they can charge their car for free by putting solar panels on their roof they will get it.

when I get my Bolt I will be adding more panels to accommodate for the extra electricity I will be using to charge it up. The ROI for the new array will be about 2-3 years.

I currently have 9.2kW DC (link is in my signature). I was about grid neutral until I bought the EV in June. I'm guessing you're in SoCal, and base that very optimistic ROI on TOU peak of $0.39 per kWh. On average, I'm paying $0.04 per kWh. My "other" car gets 40MPG. It costs about $1000 per year on an annual 10,000 miles, which is about how much I plan to drive my EV (with it's 28kWh battery). Assuming that I'm also interested in charging my EV for free, and want an ROI at about 2-3 years, Please tell me where I can source enough additional PV (and install it) for between $2,000 - $3,000 - which again, is what it costs to drive my other car for 2-3 years.

 

[leodoggie]

Hi oilerlord,

Cost, $4000 - $1200 (fed tax credit 30%) = $2800 ROI 2-3 years. Source locally so that you can pick up panels and not pay several hundred dollars for shipping.

Build and install azimuth tracking, polar tilt array myself to increase electricity production by 40%-45%. This system ensures that the panels are at the perfect angle to the sun all year long.

Erect system in California to ensure abundant sunshine.

 

[michael]

People got used to making sure to charge their phone, and put up with the spotty cell phone coverage, dropped calls, poor audio quality - all barriers equivalent to the issues some people would have in learning and adapting to an EV.

I'm trying to come up with reasons why less than 1% of the car buying public choose an electric car. Let's stipulate that they are wonderful machines, for all the reasons you've listed and more. I love mine, you love yours, and people on this board with Bolt orders are excited to take delivery.

You've mentioned time & again that range isn't an issue, price isn't an issue, charging isn't an issue, and that EV's are more reliable than ICEV's and EV's operating costs are lower. If all of that is true, and EV's are superior to ICEV's in practically every way, why are overall sales of EV's less than 1% of the market?

I suggested that a barrier to widespread acceptance could be that people don't understand EV's and/or resist change. People may be staying with gasoline vehicles because that's what they know and are comfortable with. I also suggested that a catalyst of $5.00 gasoline, or EV's that can be bought for the same price as ICEV's may help overcome people's resistance to change, but you don't believe that either.

Clearly, you don't agree but offer no suggestions of your own.

I believe that a big reason is that they haven't yet tried a plug-in car. I know of few, if any, people who have gone back to a hybrid or ICE car after having tried a plug-in (whether EV or EREV)

That's the rationale behind carpool stickers, government funding, free charging, etc. To get enough people to try these things that they become mainstream.

I recall when hybrids first came out...they got I think $5000 incentive, plus carpool stickers, plus preferential parking. Once people realized that owning them was it's own reward, the incentives were removed.

I've told this here before, but I have friends who in the past drove nothing but Lexus (except when the kids were small and they had a Lincoln Navigator). Based on my happiness with my Focus Electric, they tried a Volt, and quickly got rid of all the ICE cars, ending up with three Volts (Red, White, and Blue)

The wife once said, and this is no lie, "I had heard there was something called a Chevrolet, but I don't think I had ever actually seen one. Now we've got three and we are perfectly happy with them"

One hears people saying things like "When an EV can go 400 miles on a charge at 80 MPH and recharge in 5 minutes, I'll get one..." Basically, they are saying when EV's can do things ICE cars cant even do, maybe then...

But once they do try....


Incidentally, here's my solution...

Set a floor on the price of gasoline at today's value. If oil prices drop, gasoline pump prices do not fall and the difference gets added as an additional tax. If oil prices go up, gas prices go up like they ever did. In other words, they keep ratcheting up, never fall.

In addition, starting three years from now (to give people some time to adjust) start raising the gasoline tax by 20 cents a gallon each year. Stop all talk of taxing EV's for road miles, throw the tax on the remaining gasoline users.

In 10 or 15 years, gasoline will be like cigarettes...very few people will buy it because it's so expensive.

 

[oilerlord]

One hears people saying things like "When an EV can go 400 miles on a charge at 80 MPH and recharge in 5 minutes, I'll get one..." Basically, they are saying when EV's can do things ICE cars cant even do, maybe then...

But once they do try....

You're echoing my point. It isn't that people can't open their minds to a new concept, it's the fear of change that holds them back. I've had discussions with guys on a VW board that have no desire to ever get behind the wheel of an EV. Regardless of all the wonderful attributes that EV's have, their mind is already made up that an electric car won't work for them. Full disclosure: I used to feel that way too.

It isn't at all about an EV's features & benefits, it's about the challenge of getting people to venture outside of their comfort zones.

We usually agree, but you lost me on taxing one group of drivers to give another group of drivers a pass. I'd rather see a system that rewards everyone with a carrot rather than hitting a select group with a stick. Also, artificially inflating the cost of gasoline hurts more people than it helps. The cheap price of gasoline may not be doing the sales of EV's any favors, but low income families have more money in their jeans because of it. That's a good thing.

 

[michael]

I see it like cigarettes. When I was a kid, they were like 35 cents a pack and every restaurant had a cigarette vending machine. Now they are maybe $7 a pack and you need to go outside to smoke. So people don't smoke anything like they used to. Health warnings didn't do it. Money and hassle did.

Same thing for gas. Make it progressively more expensive and undesirable. Give people a chance to transition away. But never allow the kind of situation that has happened recently when the price fell from nearly $4 to the mid $2's (California, I know cheaper most other places). That feeds the gas addiction.

Yes, obviously at some point if EV's predominate (or even become significant) they will need to be the ones paying for roads, but in the meanwhile use taxes as a measure to move people off of gasoline. What's the point of paying an incentive to EV purchases and then applying a tax specifically on EVs that is not applied to gasoline cars..

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Erect system in California to ensure abundant sunshine.

It's a lot easier to erect a system on one's rooftop. Methinks leasing land in CA would eat into the payback period. It's not cheap out there.

 

[oilerlord]

I see it like cigarettes. When I was a kid, they were like 35 cents a pack and every restaurant had a cigarette vending machine. Now they are maybe $7 a pack and you need to go outside to smoke. So people don't smoke anything like they used to. Health warnings didn't do it. Money and hassle did.

Same thing for gas. Make it progressively more expensive and undesirable. Give people a chance to transition away. But never allow the kind of situation that has happened recently when the price fell from nearly $4 to the mid $2's (California, I know cheaper most other places). That feeds the gas addiction.

Yeah, I can't get there. Cigarettes cause cancer that kills people. Gasoline is merely fuel, just like coal and natural gas that's used to generate electricity for our EV's. When gasoline is cheap, it's like a tax break that helps out lower income families and seniors on fixed incomes. Cheap gasoline feeds the fossil fuel addiction, but the savings also help put food on the table to feed families.

 

[user 387]

oilerlord: "Yeah, I can't get there. Cigarettes cause cancer that kills people...."

And burning fossil fuels does not? You are watching too much Fox News.

 

[michael]

I do not drive an EV so that other people can buy gasoline more cheaply.

An unintended and undesirable effect of conversion from gasoline to electricity is a reduction in demand, and therefore price, of gasoline. The fact that a lot of people switch to EVs should not result in reduction in gas prices and others buying huge gas guzzling SUVs, trucks, and sports cars. One purpose of taxation is to limit undesirable behavior, and I believe burning of gasoline to drive a car is example of this undesirable behavior.

Yes, tax gas to death. Get rid of it like people got rid of tobacco. Make it expensive and socially unacceptable. Protect the interests of poorer people the way California already does...give them economic incentives to get clean, efficient cars.

 

[Michael1]

I see it like cigarettes. When I was a kid, they were like 35 cents a pack and every restaurant had a cigarette vending machine. Now they are maybe $7 a pack and you need to go outside to smoke. So people don't smoke anything like they used to. Health warnings didn't do it. Money and hassle did.

Same thing for gas. Make it progressively more expensive and undesirable. Give people a chance to transition away. But never allow the kind of situation that has happened recently when the price fell from nearly $4 to the mid $2's (California, I know cheaper most other places). That feeds the gas addiction.

Yes, obviously at some point if EV's predominate (or even become significant) they will need to be the ones paying for roads, but in the meanwhile use taxes as a measure to move people off of gasoline. What's the point of paying an incentive to EV purchases and then applying a tax specifically on EVs that is not applied to gasoline cars..

So the only way for EVs to be viable is for fuel prices to be manipulated? No thanks. Anytime something is manipulated, you end up with mediocrity. If a technology can't compete, it's not viable. They need to go back to the drawing board, and come up with a better product.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

oilerlord: "Yeah, I can't get there. Cigarettes cause cancer that kills people...."

And burning fossil fuels does not? You are watching too much Fox News.

Funny, I did a quick search on Cancer link to car exhaust, and one of the first hits was from the derided Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/04/10/car-exhaust-linked-to-childhood-cancers-study-finds.html

 

[oilerlord]

Funny, I did a quick search on Cancer link to car exhaust, and one of the first hits was from the derided Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/04/10/car-exhaust-linked-to-childhood-cancers-study-finds.html

My mom died from lung cancer. Driving her car didn't kill her, cigarettes did. Seriously guys, do you really want to go there? You're trying to be witty & amusing about something that isn't funny at all.

 

[michael]

I see it like cigarettes. When I was a kid, they were like 35 cents a pack and every restaurant had a cigarette vending machine. Now they are maybe $7 a pack and you need to go outside to smoke. So people don't smoke anything like they used to. Health warnings didn't do it. Money and hassle did.

Same thing for gas. Make it progressively more expensive and undesirable. Give people a chance to transition away. But never allow the kind of situation that has happened recently when the price fell from nearly $4 to the mid $2's (California, I know cheaper most other places). That feeds the gas addiction.

Yes, obviously at some point if EV's predominate (or even become significant) they will need to be the ones paying for roads, but in the meanwhile use taxes as a measure to move people off of gasoline. What's the point of paying an incentive to EV purchases and then applying a tax specifically on EVs that is not applied to gasoline cars..

So the only way for EVs to be viable is for fuel prices to be manipulated? No thanks. Anytime something is manipulated, you end up with mediocrity. If a technology can't compete, it's not viable. They need to go back to the drawing board, and come up with a better product.

I don't see your objection to fuel prices being "manipulated". As it stands now the prices of EVs themselves are being manipulated to the extent of $10k here in California. Is that wrong too?

One purpose of taxation is to discourage undesirable actions. That's the justification for taxes on tobacco, alcohol, gambling etc. Heavily taxing g asoline is no different and a reasonable thing to do..

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Funny, I did a quick search on Cancer link to car exhaust, and one of the first hits was from the derided Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/04/10/car-exhaust-linked-to-childhood-cancers-study-finds.html

My mom died from lung cancer. Driving her car didn't kill her, cigarettes did. Seriously guys, do you really want to go there? You're trying to be witty & amusing about something that isn't funny at all.

I'm sorry about your mother. Rest assured that I am in no way trying to be "witty & amusing" here. When I used the word "Funny", I meant in the sense that it was ironic, not that it was amusing.

Health is something we should all take seriously. And while your mother wasn't killed by driving, her exhaust has contributed to the premature deaths of others. This is a fact. Just as her second-hand smoke has harmed others.

We have one Earth. We share the same atmosphere. We are all in this together. Let's take responsibility for our actions, and try to make things better. Most people on an EV forum such as this probably share that sentiment.