How much EV range do you actually need?

[SeanNelson]

Those unavailability percentages seem pretty high to me. Remember that you always have the "just wait for it to be free" option unless the charger is physically broken.

You and another commenter above bring up a good point about time you're willing to allocate to waiting for your car to charge at a station. There is another reason to avoid charging stations: Who has the time to wait? Unless its DCFC or there is something you really want to do while waiting, its not worth it. Charge at home and be done with it.

My comment was a rebuttal to your claim that chargers aren't reliable enough to consider driving your Bolt EV beyond the "range circle" in which you could return home to charge. Of course if you're in your home range you can charge at home, duh. But in areas where charger availability is adequate there's no reason that you can't go beyond that, particularly when the Bolt EV's range is such that by the time you need to charge you're probably ready to take a break of some kind anyway and so the charging time can be put to good use.

 

[Anonymous]

Notice the mauve colored cover just below the J1772 charging plug.

Mauve is a shade of purple. I would describe the DCFC terminal cover as being "orange".

My Bolt EV is Orange, the QC port cover is not orange. That's NOT me in the reflection; I clipped this off the internet:

 

[WetEV]

I'm hearing here that there seems to be a plethora of charging stations collecting dust on the west coast. Not so in the middle of the country. Its the supply/demand ratio that counts, and far more electric cars are sold out on the west coast too, so interesting that there are still enough charging stations.

Queuing theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

Trying to not be too mathematical:

Suppose the load is 0.5. In other words, the charger or charging station is busy half of the time.

If you have one, the odds of it being busy are one half.
That means that if you arrive, there is a 50% chance that the single charger or charging station is busy.

If there is two, the odds of both being busy is about a quarter. Usually one station is busy, the other is open.

If you have very many chargers or charging stations, the odds of all being busy are low unless the traffic is near capacity.
Suppose the load is 0.5. If there are 1000 chargers or charging stations, then the odds that all are busy is much lower. Usually 500 are full, but this will vary some as arrivals are more or less random in time. Sure, often are 501, and even 600. But 700 is less common, 800 even less common and so on.

Average and worst case wait times fall even faster with more parallel queues.

You and another commenter above bring up a good point about time you're willing to allocate to waiting for your car to charge at a station. There is another reason to avoid charging stations: Who has the time to wait? Unless its DCFC or there is something you really want to do while waiting, its not worth it. Charge at home and be done with it.

Charge at home most of the time, over 90% by kWh is at home. However, I'd rather take the electric than the wife's ICE, if the trip is reasonable. Seats are more comfortable, car is quieter and so on. Can I schedule the trip so as to have minimum impact from charging stops? If so, I take the electric. If not, take the gasser.

 

[SeanNelson]

Notice the mauve colored cover just below the J1772 charging plug.

Mauve is a shade of purple. I would describe the DCFC terminal cover as being "orange".

My Bolt EV is Orange, the QC port cover is not orange.

Interesting - I've never seen a picture of the orange Bolt with the DCFC cover. You're right in that it really changes its appearance. In that photo I'd describe it as "pink" rather than mauve, but I can certainly see where you're coming from.

Of course the auto white balance on cameras these days along with environmental factors leads to lots of colour oddities, as evidenced by "The Gold Dress".

 

[oilerlord]

Queuing theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

Trying to not be too mathematical:

Suppose the load is 0.5. In other words, the charger or charging station is busy half of the time.

If you have one, the odds of it being busy are one half.
That means that if you arrive, there is a 50% chance that the single charger or charging station is busy.

If there is two, the odds of both being busy is about a quarter. Usually one station is busy, the other is open.

If you have very many chargers or charging stations, the odds of all being busy are low unless the traffic is near capacity.
Suppose the load is 0.5. If there are 1000 chargers or charging stations, then the odds that all are busy is much lower. Usually 500 are full, but this will vary some as arrivals are more or less random in time. Sure, often are 501, and even 600. But 700 is less common, 800 even less common and so on.

Average and worst case wait times fall even faster with more parallel queues.

You and another commenter above bring up a good point about time you're willing to allocate to waiting for your car to charge at a station. There is another reason to avoid charging stations: Who has the time to wait? Unless its DCFC or there is something you really want to do while waiting, its not worth it. Charge at home and be done with it.

Charge at home most of the time, over 90% by kWh is at home. However, I'd rather take the electric than the wife's ICE, if the trip is reasonable. Seats are more comfortable, car is quieter and so on. Can I schedule the trip so as to have minimum impact from charging stops? If so, I take the electric. If not, take the gasser.

This is the kind of stuff that makes Joe Public laugh at us while he drives off the lot in his new Suburban.

 

[SparkE]

This is the kind of stuff that makes Joe Public laugh at idiotic 'what if' discussions on the internet.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Queuing theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

Trying to not be too mathematical:

Suppose the load is 0.5. In other words, the charger or charging station is busy half of the time.

If you have one, the odds of it being busy are one half.
That means that if you arrive, there is a 50% chance that the single charger or charging station is busy.

If there is two, the odds of both being busy is about a quarter. Usually one station is busy, the other is open.

If you have very many chargers or charging stations, the odds of all being busy are low unless the traffic is near capacity.
Suppose the load is 0.5. If there are 1000 chargers or charging stations, then the odds that all are busy is much lower. Usually 500 are full, but this will vary some as arrivals are more or less random in time. Sure, often are 501, and even 600. But 700 is less common, 800 even less common and so on.

Average and worst case wait times fall even faster with more parallel queues.

You and another commenter above bring up a good point about time you're willing to allocate to waiting for your car to charge at a station. There is another reason to avoid charging stations: Who has the time to wait? Unless its DCFC or there is something you really want to do while waiting, its not worth it. Charge at home and be done with it.

Charge at home most of the time, over 90% by kWh is at home. However, I'd rather take the electric than the wife's ICE, if the trip is reasonable. Seats are more comfortable, car is quieter and so on. Can I schedule the trip so as to have minimum impact from charging stops? If so, I take the electric. If not, take the gasser.

This is the kind of stuff that makes Joe Public laugh at us while he drives off the lot in his new Suburban.

Yet the exact same theory applies to gas pumps. This is why most modern stations have a whole array of pumps. The nearest one to my work has 8 pumps. I have never seen all 8 taken. The most I've seen is 6.

 

[WetEV]

This is the kind of stuff that makes Joe Public laugh at us while he drives off the lot in his new Suburban.

Was that queuing theory you had a problem with?

Or did you have a problem with my personal choice as to which car to drive for which trip?

 

[oilerlord]

Was that queuing theory you had a problem with?

Or did you have a problem with my personal choice as to which car to drive for which trip?

Neither. My point is that Joe Public could care less.

 

[WetEV]

Was that queuing theory you had a problem with?

Or did you have a problem with my personal choice as to which car to drive for which trip?

Neither. My point is that Joe Public could care less.

About what?

The public might not care about queuing theory, but does care when they have to wait. At gas pumps, ATMs, checkout lines and so on as well.

 

[oilerlord]

About what?

The public might not care about queuing theory, but does care when they have to wait. At gas pumps, ATMs, checkout lines and so on as well.

Joe Public could care less about all the EV-related acronyms, and minutia we find so fascinating. Theories, and varying opinions about how much range we "actually need" aren't exactly things that crosses Joe's mind, much less he cares about.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

About what?

The public might not care about queuing theory, but does care when they have to wait. At gas pumps, ATMs, checkout lines and so on as well.

Joe Public could care less about all the EV-related acronyms, and minutia we find so fascinating. Theories, and varying opinions about how much range we "actually need" aren't exactly things that crosses Joe's mind, much less he cares about.

So your point is that we are at the bleeding edge of EVs? I agree. Right now, people like myself and WetEV discuss what is needed to make EV ownership less of a hassle. Exchanging ideas on internet forums and the like. And then putting them into action by contacting those who have the power to affect change. (I have been in touch with NYSERDA multiple times, I assume that WetEV has been in touch with people local to himself).

Eventually, we (the collective EV owners/manufacturers/infrastructure providers/etc) will make the world more friendly to EVs. So much so that Joe Public can just drive off the lot in his brand new 2030 Bolt, and not have to think about anything other than making his monthly payments.

 

[oilerlord]

So your point is that we are at the bleeding edge of EVs? I agree.

No, that wasn't my point. Obviously, as every moment in time passes, we are on "bleeding edge" of technology. Look, it just happened again! And again!

The EV community (myself included) enjoys discussions about range, charging, DCFC, EVSE's, L1/2/3, CARB, CAFE, Compliance, battery chemistry, theories, etc. My point is that Joe Public doesn't care.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

So your point is that we are at the bleeding edge of EVs? I agree.

No, that wasn't my point. Obviously, as every moment in time passes, we are on "bleeding edge" of technology. Look, it just happened again! And again!

The EV community (myself included) enjoys discussions about range, charging, DCFC, EVSE's, L1/2/3, CARB, CAFE, Compliance, battery chemistry, theories, etc. My point is that Joe Public doesn't care.

And my point is that Joe Public is not on this forum. So it really doesn't matter if he cares. If we have our way, he will be able to buy an EV and still not have to care.

 

[oilerlord]

And my point is that Joe Public is not on this forum. So it really doesn't matter if he cares. If we have our way, he will be able to buy an EV and still not have to care.

Brian, in another thread you stated that you're an engineer - no doubt to identify yourself as an educated man. I don't dispute that, however you've tended to make assumptions that are in conflict with that.

If we want to see more EV's on the road, it does matter that Joe Public cares. How do you know who is, or who isn't reading this forum? A percentage of Joe Public may indeed be mildly curious about EV's and seek out information on forums like this one. We need to cultivate and encourage that curiosity to the the point they do care. Throwing acronyms, and theories at Joe Public - only to receive a deer-in-the-headlights stare isn't the way we accomplish that.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Nice ad hominem, oilerlord.

I did not mention that I am an engineer to show the world that I'm an educated man. I did that because it was applicable to the topic at hand. I have direct experience with the topic because it's what I do for a living. That's very different from "I'm an Engineer, I'm smart, you should trust me without question".

Perhaps your definition of Joe Public is reading this forum. I guess I don't know that. However, the people who are turned off by acronyms and lingo probably don't last long. They either are interested in EVs, and will learn the associated lingo. OR they are mildly curious, get turned off, and simply leave. I'm sorry, but the lingo helps the discussion. At some point, people are just going to use it to facilitate communications. The uninitiated will either adapt or leave. I'm sure that sounds cold, but it's the way things are. And certainly not limited to EV forums.

As to what I was trying to say.... We, the EV community, are working towards a world where someone doesn't have to think about their EV. They just buy it and drive it home. Oh sure, the first time they do, they'll have to hire an electrician (or DIY) to install an EVSE. But when it comes to things like queuing theory, and are there enough chargers? Well, I hope that gets to the point of a non-issue. He just drives up to the quick charging station, and plugs in. Occasionally he waits in line, just like with his Suburban traveling on Thanksgiving morning.

 

[Anonymous]

The public might not care about queuing theory, but does care when they have to wait. At gas pumps, ATMs, checkout lines and so on as well.

Yeah: ever go buy gas at a Costco on a Saturday afternoon?

 

[oilerlord]

The public might not care about queuing theory, but does care when they have to wait. At gas pumps, ATMs, checkout lines and so on as well.

Yeah: ever go buy gas at a Costco on a Saturday afternoon?

There's a difference between waiting in line and choosing to wait in line. Costco isn't the only place that sells gasoline.