GM not planning to fund CCS fast chargers

[SparkE]

Stevens Creek BMW in Santa Clara, CA has a DCFC (ChargePoint Express 100 - 24 kW). They use it extensively : DCFC to get up to ~80% charge (if more is needed then finished on one of the multiple 7 kW level-2 chargers they have).

It is used for the demo car (it was explained to me that they don't want to test drive an electric vehicle with only 25-35 miles on it, as the prospective buyer will quite likely be a little 'nervous' about the limited range. It is used as one step of the process to 'fill up' new vehicles before delivery. It is used to make sure any client there for a maintenance visit leaves with close to a full charge. AND it is used as part of the sales pitch ("it is easily recharged overnight in your garage - if you ever need a quick extra 30 miles range, just stop by here and we'll let you use our quick charger if it isn;t being used"). I've also seen them STOP charging one of their cars to give a charge to a customer with an i3.

But that 'customer service' charge is more effective as part of a sales pitch when the car has a range of 80 miles - when the range is 200+ highway miles, it isn't as ... compelling. It would still be extremely useful for a dealership that is selling 10+ EVs a week (plus customer visits, plus the test vehicle, plus as a 'perk' for the employees.

 

[SparkE]

A DCFC at a dealership is FAR less useful (in general) as part of a 'electric highway refueling station', unless :

- charges can be provided at 75+ kW
- it is relatively close to the highway
- it has *multiple* plugs available for concurrent use (even if a 2nd car lowers the charge rate for the first)

 

[Geo]

.Demo cars - do they really put in 238 miles of test drives in a day? Highly doubtful. Recharge them overnight, and when they aren't out giving test drives. Heck, having an EV out front charging could be a welcoming sign if the customer is interested in buying en EV. So maybe in addition to an L2 in the service bay, it makes sense to have a line of them outside as well.

That's not why GM will demand quick chargers at EV dealerships. The dealers need them there in case service has to fix the quick charge system in a vehicle. You can't diagnose or test the subsystem without a quick charger.

If those chargers are made available to Bolt owners, then it is an added benefit.

 

[Geo]

A DCFC at a dealership is FAR less useful (in general) as part of a 'electric highway refueling station', unless :

- charges can be provided at 75+ kW
- it is relatively close to the highway
- it has *multiple* plugs available for concurrent use (even if a 2nd car lowers the charge rate for the first)

If you're looking for 75kW, your ideal car might not be the Bolt. Everything GM has said indicates the Bolt will be 50kW. Maybe they'll offer faster charging, we'll find out soon.

On the coasts, there are already a lot of CCS chargers on/near the highways, so I'm not sure what your objection is. Some Chevy dealers are also close to highways, some are in rural towns away from highways, some in the middle of big cities. In other words - all over the place. I don't think that is a bad thing.

 

[SparkE]

A DCFC at a dealership is FAR less useful (in general) as part of a 'electric highway refueling station', unless :

- charges can be provided at 75+ kW
- it is relatively close to the highway
- it has *multiple* plugs available for concurrent use (even if a 2nd car lowers the charge rate for the first)

If you're looking for 75kW, your ideal car might not be the Bolt. Everything GM has said indicates the Bolt will be 50kW. Maybe they'll offer faster charging, we'll find out soon.

On the coasts, there are already a lot of CCS chargers on/near the highways, so I'm not sure what your objection is. Some Chevy dealers are also close to highways, some are in rural towns away from highways, some in the middle of big cities. In other words - all over the place. I don't think that is a bad thing.

If you're looking for 75kW, your ideal car might not be the Bolt. Everything GM has said indicates the Bolt will be 50kW. Maybe they'll offer faster charging, we'll find out soon.


The key part was how I phrased it : part of a 'electric highway refueling station' (driving real long distance, as in from San Diego to Portand, OR). I said it that way to distinguish it from simple 'range extension' (adding an extra 100 miles for a trip, or a real quick extra 50 miles). While 50 kW chargers are fine for range extension (charging ONCE to add a little bit to continue a trip total < 300 miles) they aren't anywhere near as useful for a long trip (over 600 miles). Charging from 5% SoC to 85% would take about 100 minutes at 45 kW (most '50' kW DCFCs provide 42-46 kW in reality). Stopping every 3 hours and waiting an hour and a half before continuing really isn't very practical for long trips. It's *great* as a 'fill up' for that return trip, especially if the DCFC is very near the destination (then even a 22 kW charger is fine, if you can leave it for 2 1/2 hours while you chat/visit with family at the destination while your car charges elsewhere).

Only Tesla currently offers charging faster than 50 kW, but that is what is needed for *practical* long distance road trips (compared to 'hey, look, I was able to drive my EV from L.A. to Seattle and it took 3 days and I only had to use NEMA 14-50 twice at campgrounds!" type of brag-travel). The CCS standard (and CHAdeMO) both allow charging at a rate higher than 50 kW - it is just that nobody (besides Tesla) offers it at the moment - on EITHER end (charger or chargee). Until you get 80-90 kW charging rates, EVs just aren't very convenient for long trips. 'electric highway refueling stations' (in the sense of 'pull in, wait 15 mins and get 100 mi of range') aren't really possible until higher charge rates are rolled out. A gas guzzler can pull in to a station, spend 5 minutes filling and paying, and drive out with an extra 350 miles range. And such 'electric stations' would need to have multiple 'pumps' (just like at gas stations) to make them a reliable refueling choice. Something similar to the Tesla supercharger network (as *originally* announced) is needed for CCS (stations off main freeways, in the middle of nowhere where there is nothing else available, to provide electricity to long-distance travelers)

To close :
On the coasts, there are already a lot of CCS chargers on/near the highways, so I'm not sure what your objection is.

My objection is that most of those are 24 kW chargers. It would take almost THREE HOURS to get a full charge from one of them. They are fine as part of an 'around town' charging network (but since they just charge about 3x the speed of the on-board charger, not THAT much better than the default). See above as to why I think faster electric recharging is needed for trips.

 

[Zoomit]

Great post, well said.

One minor point is that not ALL cars besides Tesla's are limited to 50 kW DC fast charging. The Soul EV will do 72 kW via CHAdeMO. Plus, the soon to be released IONIQ Electric will do 100 kW via CCS. Still your point is valid, most non-Tesla BEVs and the infrastructure are a long ways from practical long distance travel.

 

[SparkE]

Great post, well said.

One minor point is that not ALL cars besides Tesla's are limited to 50 kW DC fast charging. The Soul EV will do 72 kW via CHAdeMO. Plus, the soon to be released IONIQ Electric will do 100 kW via CCS. Still your point is valid, most non-Tesla BEVs and the infrastructure are a long ways from practical long distance travel.

I wonder who will be producing (and selling, and installing) the 100 kW DCFCs? Most fast chargers today top out at 50 kW. Does anybody know what vendors currently have chargers that charge at 72 kW or above, using any of the DCFC standards? (Ignoring whatever Tesla uses obviously, it being a proprietary 'non-standard'.)

 

[Zoomit]

The only 100kW chargers that I can find are the evtec espresso&charge and the Signet FC-100k.

http://www.evtec.ch/files/4114/4843/8748/factsheet_espressocharge_en.pdf
http://www.novacharge.net/charging-stations/products/signet/

The first one looks the most intriguing, but who knows when the charging networks will start installing these kinds of units.

Classic chicken or egg problem.

 

[SparkE]

Tesla won a lawsuit in the U.K. not THAT long ago which upheld their claim of "fastest charging". IIRC, a company sued saying that it offered a faster charger and had for some time, and thus that Tesla should not be allowed to use their "fastest charging" claim anymore. Tesla claimed that (1a) no other cars accepted a faster charge, (1b) none of the other company's chargers had actually been installed yet, and when they were they wouldn't be able to charge any existing non-Tesla vehicle as fast as they could (1c) their 90 kW super-chargers WERE the fastest chargers currently in use anywhere, world-wide (2) Tesla had announced a charger even faster than the company suing them, and although no chargers had yet been installed and no cars yet produced which would take that rate of charge, that they (Tesla) had the other company beat both in the real world and in the imaginary 'one day there will be' world.

The judge sided with Tesla. Unfortunately, it being in the U.K., the judge(s) did not include a pithy comment with the judgement.

I honestly believe that it would really help the sales of longer-range electric vehicles if *somebody* set up a 'supercharger-like' network for the 'standard' charge plug formats. It wouldn't (and shouldn't) be free, but just a handful of 90-100 kW multi-space charging lots in out-of-the-way spots along high-density travel routes would make a HUGE difference. Up & down I-5, along I-80/I-70 & I-40 would cover a large part of the west.

I read an analyst who claimed last year that the super-charger network originally set up by Tesla could actually be a net revenue *positive* set-up for them, not even accounting for how it affected Tesla car sales. The networks were set up with HUGE solar arrays and were (originally) fairly seldom used (just travelers) so that they generated more electricity than they used and allowed Tesla to get super-cheap electricity when they pulled from the grid (because they were net-positive in terms of electricity). That would be true in the southwest (L.A. thru Texas) and a lot of CA: lots of annual sunshine. I'd pay $0.50/kWh if it allowed that trip up to Reno or down to L.A. in my EV. Place them around podunk cities (like Stockton or Modesto or Tracy or Barstow) where land is cheap and the electrical infrastructure already exists.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I honestly believe that it would really help the sales of longer-range electric vehicles if *somebody* set up a 'supercharger-like' network for the 'standard' charge plug formats. It wouldn't (and shouldn't) be free, but just a handful of 90-100 kW multi-space charging lots in out-of-the-way spots along high-density travel routes would make a HUGE difference. Up & down I-5, along I-80/I-70 & I-40 would cover a large part of the west.

Agreed completely. We need someone like Fastned in the U.S. Could you imagine what it would be like if one of our networks, like EVGo for instance, were rolling out stations like this? Incredible!

https://fastned.nl/en/

 

[Geo]

I honestly believe that it would really help the sales of longer-range electric vehicles if *somebody* set up a 'supercharger-like' network for the 'standard' charge plug formats. It wouldn't (and shouldn't) be free, but just a handful of 90-100 kW multi-space charging lots in out-of-the-way spots along high-density travel routes would make a HUGE difference. Up & down I-5, along I-80/I-70 & I-40 would cover a large part of the west.

Audi has promised a 150kw nationwide network. But you know... Audi. Always promising big and not delivering.
http://insideevs.com/audi-commits-nationwide-150-kw-fast-charge-network-u-s-video/

Last year, President Obama signed the FAST act, which is mostly for highway improvements, but it does include funding for a nationwide fast charging corridor by 2020. Again, might happen, might not... politics plays a big role.

If you think about it, we'd probably only need about 100 chargers to really cover the US. At $50K per charger, that is about $5 million for the hardware, plus land and operating costs. Maybe $10 million total? In the scheme of things, not that much. Heck, Paul Allen put up $10 million just to fund the X-Prize.

 

[SparkE]

I honestly believe that it would really help the sales of longer-range electric vehicles if *somebody* set up a 'supercharger-like' network for the 'standard' charge plug formats. It wouldn't (and shouldn't) be free, but just a handful of 90-100 kW multi-space charging lots in out-of-the-way spots along high-density travel routes would make a HUGE difference. Up & down I-5, along I-80/I-70 & I-40 would cover a large part of the west.

Agreed completely. We need someone like Fastned in the U.S. Could you imagine what it would be like if one of our networks, like EVGo for instance, were rolling out stations like this? Incredible!

https://fastned.nl/en/

I can't tell if you are joking or not.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

No joke intended. I'm not sure why you think I might have been? Or is the FastNed network nothing like what you were talking about?

For those not in the know, FastNed is a DC QC network in the Netherlands. They have stations open across the country, today, which offer multiple plugs for both the CHAdeMO (Nissan/Renault) and CCS (most of the rest) QC standards. Much like Tesla's supercharging network, the chargers are redundant, quick, and well placed.

Meanwhile, in the US, we have "networks" like EVGo. They have a single charger (single point of failure, lines with more than one vehicle, etc) per location. And the locations are haphazardly "chosen". There is no big picture thinking. They don't seem to be attempting to build a network to be used for long-distance travel.

What I dream about is a company with the foresight of Tesla, who will roll out a large charging network that supports all makes of EVs (CCS and CHAdeMO). I thought this is what you were thinking too. FastNed is simply a point of reference where such a network has been rolled out.

 

[JPWhite]

Meanwhile, in the US, we have "networks" like EVGo. They have a single charger (single point of failure, lines with more than one vehicle, etc) per location. And the locations are haphazardly "chosen". There is no big picture thinking. They don't seem to be attempting to build a network to be used for long-distance travel.
.

I know someone who use to work for EVGo. He had a really really hard time getting hosts to adopt a DCFC on their property

The idea one needs to find a host is the source of the haphazard choices made. There is little planning as a result.

Gas stations don't find 'hosts' they find property they can buy in a good location and build a gas station on it. Until EV charging stations are located by choosing where you want them rather than who will have them, we will face the sporadic buildout we see today.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Good point. In the case of Tesla (and FastNed, AFAIA), it was more the latter - the locations were chosen rather than a host found.

 

[Eastocean]

Here in the mid-Atlantic, we have a regional gas station / convenience store / fast food chain stores called Royal Farms. They are growing, but do not add fast chargers to every new store. Rather, looking at the distribution of chargers, and planned chargers, there is some logical thought going on in their placement. Here in Delaware, not yet an electric hotbed, they are retrofitting 5 established stores stores with DCFC scattered across this small state.

 

[michael]

Living in Los Angeles, one of the most common excuses people use as to why they "can't" get an EV is "What if I want to go to Las Vegas?"

So how about this: What if the LA area Chevy dealers all kicked in and paid, or at least contributed, to the cost if installing a couple of DCFC units in Barstow, halfway between LA and Vegas. They could offer their customers free charging sufficient to "go to Vegas". A dozen free fill ups per year, for example.

Others would be able to use the charger, but at the normal cost.

There is already a Tesla supercharger in Barstow...how about this as an example of how it can be done.

 

[SparkE]

No joke intended. I'm not sure why you think I might have been? Or is the FastNed network nothing like what you were talking about?

For those not in the know, FastNed is a DC QC network in the Netherlands. They have stations open across the country, today, which offer multiple plugs for both the CHAdeMO (Nissan/Renault) and CCS (most of the rest) QC standards. Much like Tesla's supercharging network, the chargers are redundant, quick, and well placed.

Meanwhile, in the US, we have "networks" like EVGo. They have a single charger (single point of failure, lines with more than one vehicle, etc) per location. And the locations are haphazardly "chosen". There is no big picture thinking. They don't seem to be attempting to build a network to be used for long-distance travel.

What I dream about is a company with the foresight of Tesla, who will roll out a large charging network that supports all makes of EVs (CCS and CHAdeMO). I thought this is what you were thinking too. FastNed is simply a point of reference where such a network has been rolled out.

I thought you might be kidding because :
- FastNed has chargers all over (not simply every 100 miles along major routes, which is what I was talking about)
- EVgo is closest to being the EV "fill station" long distance travel network that we have in CA (i.e., it already exists for the most part *IN California*) : they have DCFCs all along the major north-south freeway routes, and all over the major metro areas
- nobody, including FastNed, offers faster than 50 kW charge stations yet (except Tesla), and that's what is needed for long distance travel

I honestly believe that 90 kW (or greater) charge rates are needed to support long distance travel - I don't think that 50 kW chargers will suffice. I think we need a "DCSC" network (DC SuperCharging). You'd have to stop for 45-55 minutes to recharge a 60 kWh battery to 80% when charging at a rate of 44-46 kW (which is what the "50" kW chargers provide in real life). Stopping every 2-2.5 hours and then having to wait 40 minutes before you can continue just won't cut it. Having to wait 20 minutes for a recharge is bad enough, but 40 minutes is just crazy.

The 'SuperCharge' network (needs a different name, as Tesla probably has SuperCharge trademarked) would only need a handful of stations: one near-ish to Barstow (for travel to Las Vegas), the coastal route (one around each of Ventura, SLO, Monterey/Salinas, half moon bay), a couple between LA and the Bay Area on I-5, one around Stockton/Tracy, one around Vacaville, one between Sacramento & Reno on I-80, one halfway to Redding, one near Redding. That would cover the long-distance travel for 95% of the population and most of the state. Well, you'd probably want a station between LA & SD, and a station in East L.A. county somewheres. Extra watts for the 'last 80 miles, off the main route' can be done using a 50 kW charger - those already exist all over the state. And the car could be 'filled up' overnight at destination using one of the 1000s of level-2 chargers in the state. The *long distance drive* (get in your car, drive 500 miles) would be covered by the DCSC network. Each of the stations in the network would need multiple plugs - 4 as an absolute minimum, 6 a better minimum; 10-16 would be best. And once this minimal network is up (stations every 100 miles or so) and people start using them, there will be businesses willing to add other 'stations' between the existing 'minimal network' ones. But it's a 'chicken and egg' problem - without that network, driving an EV around CA will be a pain. Without BEVs wanting to fill up, there's not much monetary incentive to install the stations. Without the stations, not many people will be travelling via BEV for long distances. Vicious, meet circle.

For driving around town (round trip of 80 miles or so) there's not much *need* for fast charging (either of the 'Fast' or 'Super' variety) no matter what model of EV you have (Bolt or Spark or LEAF or Soul or ...) - unless you live in a place where you don't have a personal EVSE to plug in the car overnight. A level-1 or level-2 EVSE is fine for most people, most of the time - they can let the car charge up overnight, or let it charge 2-4 hours at work and usually have a pretty full charge. A 50 kW FC is useful for a (fairly) quick boost to get to a specific place when the battery is low, or to extend a trip by 50 miles. But for true long-distance travel, a 90+ kW charging network is what is necessary, IMO. (The CCS standard *already allows* charging at 90 kW, and they are trying to deliver 150 kW quick chargers ASAP.)

As an aside (as if my ramble wasn't long enough already) I think that a 'slow fast charger' in shopping areas (parking lots of mini- (strip-) malls or grocery/department stores) would be very convenient. There's actually two stores near me that have one, and it's great : stop off for 10-15 minutes of shopping, plug in and get 20-30 miles from a 24 kW charger if your battery is less than 1/2-full. I actually specifically go to those two stores when I need random crap (AA batteries, Halloween candy, a magazine, whatever) and I'm in the area and about 1/2 full. And I *tell the cashier* that I came to this store because of the 'fast charger'. (The 24 kW chargers are significantly less expensive to buy & install than the 50 kW chargers - less than 1/5 of the cost.)

Anyhow, that's enough rambling for now.

 

[SparkE]

*double post*

 

[SparkE]

Living in Los Angeles, one of the most common excuses people use as to why they "can't" get an EV is "What if I want to go to Las Vegas?"

So how about this: What if the LA area Chevy dealers all kicked in and paid, or at least contributed, to the cost if installing a couple of DCFC units in Barstow, halfway between LA and Vegas. They could offer their customers free charging sufficient to "go to Vegas". A dozen free fill ups per year, for example.

Others would be able to use the charger, but at the normal cost.

There is already a Tesla supercharger in Barstow...how about this as an example of how it can be done.

There are already *almost* enough DCFCs for a Bolt to go from Tijuana to the northern OR border, and to Reno and Vegas. It wouldn't be easy, you might get 'shut down' (delayed/level-2 charge) by a broken charger, and you'd spend a lot of time waiting while the battery re-charged in any case. The two biggest holes are 'around Barstow' (for travel to Las Vegas &/or Needles), and 'around' Bakersfield (for travel northward). Those are the two really 'scary' parts, where a broken charger can really screw you over. The coastal route is somewhat better than the central valley route (although there are quite a few 24kW chargers). And for going to AZ, if a DCFC multi-station were added around Quartize and another around Yuma, then travel to/from San Diego/LA to Tucson/Phoenix would be possible also. But 'possible' isn't the same as 'practical' - all of these chargers are a MAX of 50kW, (some are 24kW) and the installations are generally singletons or twins, which would mean long lines and long waits, even if NONE were broken.