NeilBlanchard
Well-known member
Robaroni said:
The automotive market will change because of the Bolt EV - and because of the Tesla Model 3.
Will the Chevy Bolt EV be a 'game changer'?
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The automotive market will change because of the Bolt EV - and because of the Tesla Model 3.
devbolt
Well-known member
I think we can all agree that auto manufacturers have a number of conflicting elements that they have to balance when designing a car. Performance versus efficiency. Size versus weight. Form versus function. Cost versus available features. Some of these are interrelated (weight, size, efficiency, performance).
GM apparently thought that in order to make the car appeal to the mass market, they needed to tune it a bit more for performance. A 0-60 time that is less than 8 seconds is more appealing because it makes the car seem less like a gutless econobox, even though that is one of the segments it is competing in. That apparently means a larger & heavier electric motor, and a beefier battery and inverter to feed that motor. But they obviously didn't feel the need to make it ridiculously fast with 0-60 times that is less than 5 seconds. Once you get below 7 seconds for 0-60, it really seems to be just a meaningless measuring contest over who can waste electrons the fastest.
Given the physical size of the car, and where they put the motor and battery, a smaller more efficient motor may not have yielded significant improvements in efficiency (range).
GM apparently thought that in order to make the car appeal to the mass market, they needed to tune it a bit more for performance. A 0-60 time that is less than 8 seconds is more appealing because it makes the car seem less like a gutless econobox, even though that is one of the segments it is competing in. That apparently means a larger & heavier electric motor, and a beefier battery and inverter to feed that motor. But they obviously didn't feel the need to make it ridiculously fast with 0-60 times that is less than 5 seconds. Once you get below 7 seconds for 0-60, it really seems to be just a meaningless measuring contest over who can waste electrons the fastest.
Given the physical size of the car, and where they put the motor and battery, a smaller more efficient motor may not have yielded significant improvements in efficiency (range).
oilerlord
Well-known member
Robaroni said:
You continue to post ridiculous statements that have no basis in fact. "Germany is working to ban all ICE vehicles by 2030". That is simply NOT true.
Do you even read the links you copy & paste?
From the article:
"First of all, the Bundesrat, or federal council, is a deliberative body composed of representatives from all 16 of Germany’s states. Its resolutions do not have the force of law. Second, since Germany is part of the European Union, any law actually banning the sale of ICE vehicles would have to be enacted by the European Commission."
Translation: A snowball's chance in hell.
Dude, just because you know how to google + copy & paste, it doesn't mean everything you read on the Internet is true - regardless if it fits with your environmental agenda or not. Find some balance. The fact is that we've had EV's on the road since 1996 (and the EV-1). 20 years later, they comprise 0.6% of new car sales. ARE YOU READING THIS?? 0.6%!! IN 20 YEARS ...and that with government incentives and an EPA pushing CAFE requirements as hard as they can.
We have a long way to go before your Jetsons dream of everyone driving an EV happens. It isn't enough to wish for it, or spam the board with the virtues of renewable energy, or why the VCR became extinct. A lot of us already drive EV's and have home solar. Really, we get it.
oilerlord
Well-known member
devbolt said:
No doubt GM sweated the details on the Bolt. They sized the motor & battery capacity to balance range & performance. Some of us find driving at 5+ miles per kWh, or hypermiling their Prius to 60MPG absolutely thrilling, but mashing the pedal for that seat-of-the-pants torque puts a smile on your face & closes more sales. Hypermilers may be able to squeeze 280 miles out of the Bolt, so everybody wins.
oilerlord said:
I haven't seen the Bolt yet. I did drive the Leaf, not hard but as if I owned it and would drive on a daily basis. When I was younger I drove Porsche 911's. They were fast and handled well so I understand the younger set wanting some pep in their cars. Too bad you don't get a motor option like with ICE cars! I'm sure those things will come in time.
How is the Bolt size wise to say the Leaf?
SeanNelson
Well-known member
I love the idea of having one car that I can drive around town "like I stole it" without using a drop of gas, and the next day take it for a trip and get way over 350km of range by driving conservatively. It's really a win-win.oilerlord said:
oilerlord
Well-known member
I think it's important to discuss those 238 "game changing" EPA miles..which does seem possible as long as the temperature stays around 70F. This will be the first winter with my B250e. The last few days have been at or below freezing, and it's like someone flipped the range-kill switch. What was a fairly easy to achieve 100 miles on my 28kWh battery is now under 70. Still more than enough to get me around town but I hope I'm still able to get at least 50 miles when the temperature dips to -10F.
GM has promised to sell the Bolt in all 50 states, and in Canada. I haven't seen any cold weather test data for the Bolt but from experience, no one will get anything close to those 238 EPA miles in severe winter cold. No doubt winter won't be kind to the Model 3's range either.
GM has promised to sell the Bolt in all 50 states, and in Canada. I haven't seen any cold weather test data for the Bolt but from experience, no one will get anything close to those 238 EPA miles in severe winter cold. No doubt winter won't be kind to the Model 3's range either.
oilerlord said:
That's certainly a good question, I imagine the Tesla S people will know how severe the mileage drop is at low temps. I live in the Catskill Mountains and we see 20 below Fahrenheit. I'm retired so going out in that cold is a rare occasion. Still it's one of the reasons the low range Leaf wasn't on my buy list although now they're just about giving them away on eBay. I'm tempted! Once the Bolt comes out their price will probably drop further.
oilerlord
Well-known member
Found this on the "Teslarati" site for the Model S 85 regarding it's 265 EPA mile rating:
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/
Losing up to 50% of an EV's range in the cold is normal. Guys on the TDI forum complain that their car's FE drops from 40 to 32MPG in the cold, but it isn't much of a problem since they can still turn nearly 500 miles on a tank of diesel in January. Assuming 50% of the EPA number, a Bolt's season adjusted 119 miles of range won't work for a lot of people.
Clearly the Bolt's target audience lives in California - where tax credits, fast charging, and warm weather is plentiful. I hope battery chemistry / technology matures to the point that a 85kWh pack weighs half as much and isn't affected by temperature. That would go a long way to changing the game.
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/
Losing up to 50% of an EV's range in the cold is normal. Guys on the TDI forum complain that their car's FE drops from 40 to 32MPG in the cold, but it isn't much of a problem since they can still turn nearly 500 miles on a tank of diesel in January. Assuming 50% of the EPA number, a Bolt's season adjusted 119 miles of range won't work for a lot of people.
Clearly the Bolt's target audience lives in California - where tax credits, fast charging, and warm weather is plentiful. I hope battery chemistry / technology matures to the point that a 85kWh pack weighs half as much and isn't affected by temperature. That would go a long way to changing the game.
oilerlord said:
Trick is to have a timer set to when you want to leave or use a smart app to start your heating/cooling remotely (i have a toyota rav4ev that has those features) It will run the heater for both the car and the batteries from the wall power. That way when you drive off, evertything is already with working specs and that extends your range considerably.
oilerlord
Well-known member
fromport said:
I already do that at home. I'll have to bring my L1 cord with me which should at least keep the battery warm when plugged in at customer sites. My app only allows me to remotely run the cabin heater when plugged into L2.
SparkE
Well-known member
oilerlord said:
Not being able to run the thermal management system when plugged into an L2 charger sounds like a design defect to me. Hopefully GM in't make the same mistake with the Bolt.
devbolt
Well-known member
SparkE said:
I think he's saying that when plugged into an L1 charger you can't run the heater/AC. This is because if you are plugged into L1, you only have 1.44 kW of power available, and you if you are running the AC/heat at the same time while trying to charge, neither is going to work very well.
When plugged into L2, you can run the heater/AC all you want and still get a charge.
Running the heater/AC while not plugged into either L1 or L2 is probably to protect the battery as much as possible. Don't want to unnecessarily run the battery down.
GetOffYourGas
Well-known member
I preheat my Leaf while unplugged all the time. It is really nice to come out of the store and into a warm car in the parking lot. If I don't need the range, why shouldn't I be allowed to preheat while not plugged into L1 or L2?devbolt said:
oilerlord
Well-known member
When plugged into L2, and I turn on the climate control from the app, the whirring of motors and clicking of solenoids happens, and fluid starts pumping through the battery. There is a button on the dash that allows me to turn on the climate control manually, at any time regardless if the key is in the ignition or not, it just isn't linked to the app.
Where I live, the choice may come down to draining the battery or hypothermia. Thanks for the reminder that I need to pick up an emergency kit for the car, complete with candles.
devbolt said:
Where I live, the choice may come down to draining the battery or hypothermia. Thanks for the reminder that I need to pick up an emergency kit for the car, complete with candles.
NeilBlanchard
Well-known member
oilerlord said:Found this on the "Teslarati" site for the Model S 85 regarding it's 265 EPA mile rating:
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/
Losing up to 50% of an EV's range in the cold is normal. Guys on the TDI forum complain that their car's FE drops from 40 to 32MPG in the cold, but it isn't much of a problem since they can still turn nearly 500 miles on a tank of diesel in January. Assuming 50% of the EPA number, a Bolt's season adjusted 119 miles of range won't work for a lot of people.
Clearly the Bolt's target audience lives in California - where tax credits, fast charging, and warm weather is plentiful. I hope battery chemistry / technology matures to the point that a 85kWh pack weighs half as much and isn't affected by temperature. That would go a long way to changing the game.
FIFTY percent drop? Um, no - the biggest drop I have ever seen in abysmal winter storm conditions was ~28% in our 2015 Leaf S (resistance heater) - down from 84 miles EPA to ~60 miles. If you can stay warm with the heated seats and steering wheel, then the drop is much less than that. As the temperature drops into the teens or lower, the battery heater does take ~10-15 miles, but that is basically the ONLY thing that lowers the range; other than the higher drag of the cold air, and the slick road conditions.
oilerlord
Well-known member
NeilBlanchard said:
I did qualify the statement with up to 50%. I based that on worst case conditions like -10F, the experience with my own car and hanging out on Tesla forums. I posted the results from the Teslarati site from an owner that seemed credible, and which jived with what other Model S owners have reported in cold to very cold conditions.
Found this on the Leaf that also supports up to 50% loss of range in cold weather:
http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/
Your results may vary. The takeaway is an EV's range drops dramatically in the cold. Until advances in battery chemistry makes this a non-issue, I hope GM dealers in northern states are up front about this with prospective Bolt buyers.
GetOffYourGas
Well-known member
Yes, FIFTY percent drop. My 2012 Leaf (resistance heater) gets as low as 1.8 miles/kWh in the winter. In the summer, I get 3.6 to 4, driving the same way. The only difference is heat and outdoor temp (cold air being denser, as you know). Add on to that the fact that the battery holds less energy to begin with, and I see about a 65% drop in range. No exaggeration.NeilBlanchard said:oilerlord said:Found this on the "Teslarati" site for the Model S 85 regarding it's 265 EPA mile rating:
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/
Losing up to 50% of an EV's range in the cold is normal. Guys on the TDI forum complain that their car's FE drops from 40 to 32MPG in the cold, but it isn't much of a problem since they can still turn nearly 500 miles on a tank of diesel in January. Assuming 50% of the EPA number, a Bolt's season adjusted 119 miles of range won't work for a lot of people.
Clearly the Bolt's target audience lives in California - where tax credits, fast charging, and warm weather is plentiful. I hope battery chemistry / technology matures to the point that a 85kWh pack weighs half as much and isn't affected by temperature. That would go a long way to changing the game.
FIFTY percent drop? Um, no - the biggest drop I have ever seen in abysmal winter storm conditions was ~28% in our 2015 Leaf S (resistance heater) - down from 84 miles EPA to ~60 miles. If you can stay warm with the heated seats and steering wheel, then the drop is much less than that. As the temperature drops into the teens or lower, the battery heater does take ~10-15 miles, but that is basically the ONLY thing that lowers the range; other than the higher drag of the cold air, and the slick road conditions.
Heated seats are not an option for me as I have two children in car seats.
oilerlord
Well-known member
SparkE said:
Turns out the only "design defect" was my brain :roll: . I enabled remote climate control from the car's menu. I can now turn it on and off anytime I want, regardless if the car is plugged in or not. With winter approaching, that's a "game changer" for me.
NeilBlanchard
Well-known member
ICE vehicles can lose a lot of range, too. I have records for ~8 years of my last ICE car, and my best tanks were 600+ miles (not too shabby on a 11.9 gallon tank) and the worst in the winter was ~400 miles - and that was when I was trying to do well.
ALL cars have a large drop in cold weather. EV's actually lose LESS in cold weather - because they don't have to warm up to get good mileage.
ALL cars have a large drop in cold weather. EV's actually lose LESS in cold weather - because they don't have to warm up to get good mileage.
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