Will the Chevy Bolt EV be a 'game changer'?

[Robaroni]

Interesting article: 'Increased mileage on a charge for electric cars is all well and good, but the real “game changer” won’t come until a way is found to recharge the battery that renders the process equivalent in time to filling up a tank with gasoline.'

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-bolt-20160916-snap-story.html

I disagree with this statement, here's why.
You can't equate an EV with an ICE car. First, a car that goes over 200 miles on a charge only needs a charge station on trips. How many of you go more than the 238+ mile range of the Bolt on a daily basis? I certainly don't. An electric car can be charged anywhere there is an outlet, work, home, etc. How many people with gas cars have pumps at their homes? How many businesses have pumps for their employees? That's rhetorical! It's apples and oranges, there's just no range anxiety with a car that goes this far on a charge. That's the petroleum industry's angle, let's not chase that straw man! EVs are so much better in so many ways than an ICE car that there is just no comparison.
The world is changing, thank you Mr. Musk, and I hope it keeps changing, I can't wait for the Bolt and the Model 3, both are a great start to a technology that can only go up, unlike fossil fuel that has no way to go. Now we have massive new technologies, MOSFETS (metal oxide silicon transistors), IGBT (insulated gate bipolar transistors(, PWM (pulse width modulation), etc. etc. The transistor change the world, it was the greatest discovery of the 20th Century and it will continue to change this one.

My good friend came over yesterday, her truck gas tank is leaking and her "check engine" light is on - again! No spark plugs, no gas tank, no oil change, no complex tranny with slipping disks.

I make more electricity at my home than I use, the electric company owes me every month, now I'll drive for free, what's not to like!

Rob

 

[oilerlord]

Interesting article: 'Increased mileage on a charge for electric cars is all well and good, but the real “game changer” won’t come until a way is found to recharge the battery that renders the process equivalent in time to filling up a tank with gasoline.'

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-bolt-20160916-snap-story.html

I disagree with this statement, here's why.
You can't equate an EV with an ICE car. First, a car that goes over 200 miles on a charge only needs a charge station on trips. How many of you go more than the 238+ mile range of the Bolt on a daily basis? I certainly don't. An electric car can be charged anywhere there is an outlet, work, home, etc. How many people with gas cars have pumps at their homes? How many businesses have pumps for their employees? That's rhetorical! It's apples and oranges, there's just no range anxiety with a car that goes this far on a charge. That's the petroleum industry's angle, let's not chase that straw man! EVs are so much better in so many ways than an ICE car that there is just no comparison.
The world is changing, thank you Mr. Musk, and I hope it keeps changing, I can't wait for the Bolt and the Model 3, both are a great start to a technology that can only go up, unlike fossil fuel that has no way to go. Now we have massive new technologies, MOSFETS (metal oxide silicon transistors), IGBT (insulated gate bipolar transistors(, PWM (pulse width modulation), etc. etc. The transistor change the world, it was the greatest discovery of the 20th Century and it will continue to change this one.

My good friend came over yesterday, her truck gas tank is leaking and her "check engine" light is on - again! No spark plugs, no gas tank, no oil change, no complex tranny with slipping disks.

I make more electricity at my home than I use, the electric company owes me every month, now I'll drive for free, what's not to like!

Rob

HI Rob, welcome to the forum!

You made some valid points, but, being able to fully recharge (any EV's) battery in the time it takes to fill up an ICE car - would begin to change the game. Imagine if there was a universal EV charging station at all existing gas stations - able to charge our batteries to 80% in five minutes - provided free to the end user. Game changer.

To your point about your friend's old truck, there are old EV's on the road that are end-of-life too. Without a costly replacement battery, the manageable range of a Nissan Leaf with 50K miles on it is pretty much done - regardless of the fact you can charge it at home. I'm guessing your friend's truck has 100K or more miles on it, but it can probably make the trip from LA to Vegas without a problem. The Bolt will have nowhere near the large battery buffer that the V1.0 Volt had, and after 200K miles, I doubt that the Bolt will be able to manage more than 150 miles on a charge. This isn't the petroleum industry's "angle", it's reality. Batteries degrade over time and number of cycles.

We all don't live in California where there are an abundance of DCFC stations. There are countless city X to city Y destinations that don't have DCFC between them. So you drive 150 miles in one direction...what about getting back? What if you didn't fully charge the battery before you left, and don't have the extra half day to sit around at the destination charging at 120V because L2 and L3 aren't available?. How much of a hit does your range take if you live in a northern state with cold winters? The Bolt will be a great EV, and perfect commuter, but you can't honestly say there is "just no range anxiety" associated with it because there still is. I never give a thought about running out of fuel with my TDI, and neither does your friend with that old truck.

Please understand that I'm a big fan of EV's, and drive one too. Having enough range to make it to your destination and back 98% of the time - isn't ALL of the time. As someone that also generates their own electricity from solar, the kWh's that you generate aren't "free" either...they are a commodity with a value, and there was a big up-front cost to generate that "free" electricity. As much as the petroleum industry has an angle, the renewable energy industry has it's own angle too...complete with it's own spin and half truths.

 

[WetEV]

Without a costly replacement battery, the manageable range of a Nissan Leaf with 50K miles on it is pretty much done - regardless of the fact you can charge it at home.

Maybe some places. Leafs in the PNW have gone past 50k miles before losing first capacity bar.

 

[SeanNelson]

Imagine if there was a universal EV charging station at all existing gas stations - able to charge our batteries to 80% in five minutes - provided free to the end user.

That's exactly what I don't want - free charging. It will just attract people who want to top up for free even though they're not in real need. I want the charging to be more expensive than it is at home so that people who actually need a charge because they're beyond range of home are able to use the charging station without having to queue. Five minute charging would be great, but a 30-minute lineup for it would eliminate the benefit.

 

[WetEV]

That's exactly what I don't want - free charging.

When looking for charge stations when taking a trip away from home, I look for non-free stations first.

More likely to be working, less likely to be busy. Total money and bother is trivial compared with time you might waste looking for open, working and free.

 

[oilerlord]

Imagine if there was a universal EV charging station at all existing gas stations - able to charge our batteries to 80% in five minutes - provided free to the end user.

That's exactly what I don't want - free charging. It will just attract people who want to top up for free even though they're not in real need. I want the charging to be more expensive than it is at home so that people who actually need a charge because they're beyond range of home are able to use the charging station without having to queue. Five minute charging would be great, but a 30-minute lineup for it would eliminate the benefit.

And there it is...we advocate a society that embraces EV's, and all their benefits; as long as we aren't inconvenienced as individuals.

I think free charging doesn't just attract people who want to top up for free - but also offer a perceived benefit for people looking to buy an EV. I tend to have lunch at Ikea quite often these days, get some work done over their free wifi, and feel absolutely no guilt stopping me from using their free 10kW EV parking spots regardless of my battery's SOC. Since ICE vehicles frequently park there too, I'm totally at peace with plugging in my EV if only for a quick top up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/science/in-california-electric-cars-outpace-plugs-and-sparks-fly.html?_r=0

EV's comprise about 0.6% of the cars sold in the US this year. God help us if that number hits 5% some day.

 

[michael]

Imagine if there was a universal EV charging station at all existing gas stations - able to charge our batteries to 80% in five minutes - provided free to the end user.

That's exactly what I don't want - free charging. It will just attract people who want to top up for free even though they're not in real need. I want the charging to be more expensive than it is at home so that people who actually need a charge because they're beyond range of home are able to use the charging station without having to queue. Five minute charging would be great, but a 30-minute lineup for it would eliminate the benefit.

Exactly. If it's free, people will use it because "it's free"

Should be like a convenience store...more expensive than at a real grocery store.

 

[michael]

Imagine if there was a universal EV charging station at all existing gas stations - able to charge our batteries to 80% in five minutes - provided free to the end user.

That's exactly what I don't want - free charging. It will just attract people who want to top up for free even though they're not in real need. I want the charging to be more expensive than it is at home so that people who actually need a charge because they're beyond range of home are able to use the charging station without having to queue. Five minute charging would be great, but a 30-minute lineup for it would eliminate the benefit.

And there it is...we advocate a society that embraces EV's, and all their benefits; as long as we aren't inconvenienced as individuals.

I think free charging doesn't just attract people who want to top up for free - but also offer a perceived benefit for people looking to buy an EV. I tend to have lunch at Ikea quite often these days, get some work done over their free wifi, and feel absolutely no guilt stopping me from using their free 10kW EV parking spots regardless of my battery's SOC. Since ICE vehicles frequently park there too, I'm totally at peace with plugging in my EV if only for a quick top up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/science/in-california-electric-cars-outpace-plugs-and-sparks-fly.html?_r=0

EV's comprise about 0.6% of the cars sold in the US this year. God help us if that number hits 5% some day.

No!

Ice cars should be ticketed or better yet towed.

EV's should use the spot only when needed so that those who really need the charge can get home

 

[WetEV]

I tend to have lunch at Ikea quite often these days, get some work done over their free wifi, and feel absolutely no guilt stopping me from using their free 10kW EV parking spots regardless of my battery's SOC.

A business that has 'free' parking or 'free' EV charging stations is doing so as you will have lunch, or buy stuff, or watch movies and eat popcorn, or whatever the business is selling. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

EV's comprise about 0.6% of the cars sold in the US this year. God help us if that number hits 5% some day.

Not if, when.

EV's should use the spot only when needed so that those who really need the charge can get home

Business offering free EV charging stations are doing so to get business. The business can, should and needs to set the rules. There is a drive-in near me with a charging station. Kinda a mixture of the 1950's and the 2050's. As long as that station helps to sell hamburgers, shakes and fries, it is in the station's interest to provide it. It is NOT there as a convenience for non-customers, regardless of how much they "really need the charge to get home". There are pay stations for that. If the pay stations are full, I'd expect to buy at least one of their excellent shakes as a way of saying thanks.

 

[SparkE]

I have no problem with free level-2 stations - you have to stay a long time to get any real 'fill', and a level-2 shouldn't be where you go for 'emergency' power (and if it's an emergency, you should have no problem paying for it). I also don't have a problem with anybody using a free fast charge station - if you are depending on a fill to get somewhere, go pay for it, or wait in line at the free station. I do get peeved at people charging to 97% at a FC station when others are waiting, whether they are paying or not - it's just rude. (Unfortunately, EVgo contributes to this - more on that later.)

I *DO* have a problem with free 'fill cards' that allow people to use what is normally a paid FAST CHARGE station for free. For the reasons already mentioned : (1) those stations are very important for people that NEED electricity to get where they are going NOW (2) people getting 'free' electricity tend to fill to almost 100% (the last 10-15% at a VERY reduced rate of charge, barely faster than level-2) thus 'blocking' the pumps (3) because of #2, those people in the #1 group have to wait around, sometime for a long time, for a fill.

I don't agree with the 'you should only plug in when you absolutely HAVE to' at a level-2 EVSE. Or even "PHVs shouldn't be plugging in - they can use GAS!" - anything that reduces pollution is good. But then I live in an area with over 500 level-2 EVSEs in a 20-mile radius, so there's always one down the road. There are apps for smart phones that allow you to see which stations are open. I could see somebody in an area with very few available charging spots being peeved if none were available because people were 'topping off' (like Truckee, CA).

About EVgo ... I have one of their cards for emergencies - just in case I get stuck and NEED a charge - but I have NO subscription (so electricity per kW is more expensive). EVgo happens to have one of the largest 50 kW DCFC networks in CA (even for CCS). Unfortunately, their subscription plans suck diseased whale dong. Unless you pay $15/mo (which is feasible/economical ONLY if using their network as your main charging solution, or if you travel a LOT in your EV), you pay a 'connection fee' per session at a DCFC - and it's $5 per charge. AND you pay for electricity on TOP of that. So, by the nature of their fees, they encourage people to charge up to the last drop. Damn them!

 

[oilerlord]

"If it's free, people will use it because "it's free""

And that's a bad thing because?? Ikea wants me to use their free charging as an incentive to get me in the store to buy stuff. I get a buck or two of free kWh's, but they now have a loyal, regular customer. To that point, I've been at that store more in the last month than I have in the last 5 years. Businesses that offer free charging are good corporate and environmental citizens that "get it", and like-minded customers reward them with their business. Win-Win.

"EV's should use the spot only when needed so that those who really need the charge can get home"

Good luck with that. If I don't have enough juice to get home, then that's on me. First come, first served. Instead of getting into a squabble at the EVSE, how about we lobby our local government and businesses to install more of them?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

"If it's free, people will use it because "it's free""

And that's a bad thing because?? Ikea wants me to use their free charging as an incentive to get me in the store to buy stuff. I get a buck or two of free kWh's, but they now have a loyal, regular customer. To that point, I've been at that store more in the last month than I have in the last 5 years. Businesses that offer free charging are good corporate and environmental citizens that "get it", and like-minded customers reward them with their business. Win-Win.

I feel like we are mixing the conversation here. Very few people are so dead-set against free L2 chargers. And that's what the retailers want, since it forces you to linger in their stores longer.

The challenge today is for free DCQC chargers. These are the ones that we want to be reliable and available. These are the ones you are counting on if you need to extend beyond your half-range radius of home. It is my opinion that they should cost more than charging at home, but ideally less than the equivalent cost of gasoline. I want the networks to make money off of them. That is what will encourage them to build more, and to keep them in good repair. Government mandates and Corporate "green" image only get you so far. At the end of the day, we still live in a capitalist world.

 

[SeanNelson]

I feel like we are mixing the conversation here. Very few people are so dead-set against free L2 chargers. And that's what the retailers want, since it forces you to linger in their stores longer. The challenge today is for free DCQC chargers.

Very astute of you to pick up on that, and I agree 100%.

 

[jimmyjon]

Imo some information has come out that does not make it a game changer

 

[SparkE]

Imo some information has come out that does not make it a game changer

What information?

 

[oilerlord]

The challenge today is for free DCQC chargers. These are the ones that we want to be reliable and available. These are the ones you are counting on if you need to extend beyond your half-range radius of home. It is my opinion that they should cost more than charging at home, but ideally less than the equivalent cost of gasoline. I want the networks to make money off of them. That is what will encourage them to build more, and to keep them in good repair. Government mandates and Corporate "green" image only get you so far. At the end of the day, we still live in a capitalist world.

If the cost of L3 charging is in the ballpark of filling up with gasoline, then there goes one of the Bolt's financial TCO selling points vs other gasoline vehicles. I like that Musk keeps it simple. Buy a Tesla, and benefit from ever expanding network of Free Superchargers. No subscriptions, keycards, or calls to tech support to pay for and/ or unlock a third-party EVSE to start charging your car. Personally, I vote for free & easy. It's sad that Tesla is the only EV manufacturer with the vision to simply include the cost of L3 charging in the price of the car.

 

[DucRider]

If the cost of L3 charging is in the ballpark of filling up with gasoline, then there goes one of the Bolt's financial TCO selling points vs other gasoline vehicles. I like that Musk keeps it simple. Buy a Tesla, and benefit from ever expanding network of Free Superchargers. No subscriptions, keycards, or calls to tech support to pay for and/ or unlock a third-party EVSE to start charging your car. Personally, I vote for free & easy. It's sad that Tesla is the only EV manufacturer with the vision to simply include the cost of L3 charging in the price of the car.

Supercharging will not be free on the Model 3 and is not included in the price of the car. There are many indications that Tesla will switch to a pay per charge model on at least some of it's future cars. It may be linked to the VIN and/or a specific account (similar to EZ Pass or other toll systems that automatically reloads when low). Or it might require a fob/keycard/credit card. Although Tesla has stated that it will not be free, they have not announced how or what they will charge Model 3 owners to Supercharge.

Public quick charging can (and probably should) be at an equivalent rate as gas. Such a small percentage of charging will be done by that method that the impact on the TCO is minimal - plus you're ignoring the greatly reduced maintenance costs in your TCO statement.

And to clarify:
Supercharging, L3, & DCFC (CHAdeMO & CCS) are three different things (with some overlap)
L3 charging can be AC or DC.
By SAE standards, Tesla Supercharging is DC Level 3 (>90 kW), CHAdeMO & CCS are DC Level 1 (up to 36 kW) or 2 (36 to 90 kW).
AC Level 3 is >20 kW

 

[GetOffYourGas]

If the cost of L3 charging is in the ballpark of filling up with gasoline, then there goes one of the Bolt's financial TCO selling points vs other gasoline vehicles.

Not true. I would wager a guess that for most people, the Bolt will cover 75% or more of their total annual mileage based off charging at home. That's much cheaper than gasoline, even at $2/gallon, by the way. If the remaining 25% was the equivalent cost of gas, it doesn't significantly cut into the fuel savings.

Moreover, the Bolt still keeps the advantage of reduced maintenance. That saves both time and money.

Edit: I was so eager to respond to oilerlord's misstatement that I completely missed DucRider's response. He already address the same things I did and then some.

 

[WetEV]

If the cost of L3 charging is in the ballpark of filling up with gasoline, then there goes one of the Bolt's financial TCO selling points vs other gasoline vehicles.

Not true. I would wager a guess that for most people, the Bolt will cover 75% or more of their total annual mileage based off charging at home.

Charging at home is a joy, a time saver, a money saver. This was a real surprise to me. About a month after I bought a BEV, it finally hit me. I could stop worrying about when I need to take a trip to the gas station. I was really surprised how nice that feeling was.

Charging on the road is somewhat of a bother, can be a time sink and can be more expensive than gasoline, or free. If you are spending most of your time and miles near home, as almost everyone does, advantage Bolt or other BEV. So what if you pay twice the price of gasoline once a year. The other 364 days matter more.

I find that one charge stop is very acceptable, especially if you can plan in a reason for the stop, such as lunch. Two stops is a little too much. I've done five charge stop trips once, four twice, three never and two twice. One charge stop trips, a bunch, maybe 20. Daily commutes? 49*4*5 or about a thousand. So just counting by charges (no kWh) about 95% of my charging is at home.

 

[oilerlord]

If the cost of L3 charging is in the ballpark of filling up with gasoline, then there goes one of the Bolt's financial TCO selling points vs other gasoline vehicles.

Not true. I would wager a guess that for most people, the Bolt will cover 75% or more of their total annual mileage based off charging at home. That's much cheaper than gasoline, even at $2/gallon, by the way. If the remaining 25% was the equivalent cost of gas, it doesn't significantly cut into the fuel savings.

Moreover, the Bolt still keeps the advantage of reduced maintenance. That saves both time and money.

Edit: I was so eager to respond to oilerlord's misstatement that I completely missed DucRider's response. He already address the same things I did and then some.

Easy guys. I said free L3 (or technically DCFC) charging is one of the Bolt's TCO selling points - not all of them. When people have pay for it at the station, some of the magic is lost. Again, I'd rather see Ford, GM, BMW, VW, etc, price fast charging into their cars instead of their customers having to set up, manage, and pay for multiple charging subscriptions. Tesla got it right, and to the OP's topic, contributes to how they changed the game.

"the Bolt will cover 75% or more of their total annual mileage based off charging at home. That's much cheaper than gasoline, even at $2/gallon, by the way."

:roll:

So, charging my EV at home is cheaper than buying gasoline. Thanks for clearing that up.

"And to clarify:
Supercharging, L3, & DCFC (CHAdeMO & CCS) are three different things (with some overlap)
L3 charging can be AC or DC.
By SAE standards, Tesla Supercharging is DC Level 3 (>90 kW), CHAdeMO & CCS are DC Level 1 (up to 36 kW) or 2 (36 to 90 kW).
AC Level 3 is >20 kW"

I hope that the small number of knowledgeable Bolt salespeople don't use jargon, and instead focus on how simple it is to charge their car. When people ask about where, and how long it takes to charge my car, I'd rather go with:

Level 1 = Slow
Level 2 = Medium
Level 3 = Fast (though sadly not an option for me)

The jury is still out if it will be pay-per-use for the Model 3 to access Tesla Superchargers. There is talk of "Supercharger Credits, and about bringing back the $2500 Supercharging option - leaving the choice up to the customer. I hope they choose the latter.