Used Model S vs New Bolt

[Takumi]

Is there enough used Model S out there at the Bolt's price point to make it a competitor to the Bolt?

Advantages? Disadvantages?

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/bolt-ev/2017/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-vs-2016-tesla-model-s-60/

Bolt:
Warranty (peace of mind)
Sized for city
Easier ingress & egress (?)
Have to deal with dealer

Model S:
Supercharger network
Quicker & faster (Bolt's 91mph vs 135~155mph)/ passing power
Have to deal with Tesla

 

[user 1034]

Even if there was enough available stock, the value doesn't seem to drop much. It is also in the Luxury segment and not the same segment as the Bolt. This can be both a positive and a negative...

(Ref: https://electrek.co/2016/09/13/tesla-model-s-value-retention-leading-segment-losing-only-28-after-50k-miles/)

 

[oilerlord]

To gbob's point, used Teslas are in high demand and thus don't depreciate to the degree that other (BMW, Ford, GM, Mercedes, etc) do. My guess is that the Bolt will lose half it's value in 2-3 years. While that's a disadvantage for buyers, it's a big advantage for those looking to pick up a low mileage lease return somewhere down the road.

I get why the cars are being compared - both being 200+ mile EV's, but that where the similarities end. Really, comparing a Bolt with a Model S is like comparing a Honda Fit with a BMW 7 series sedan.

 

[Nagorak]

A used Model S will let you back at least $20K more than the Bolt, after taking into account the tax credits, so it's not much of a viable alternative.

 

[Takumi]

I edited the Title to clarify what I wanted in the discussion. I didn't want Used vs. Used. I wanted Used vs. New. When the LEAF 2.0 comes out, it'll most likely go in the mix. As it is, I would rather recommend the LEAF 2.0 even if they come out with 150 miles as opposed to 200 miles just because the Bolt's charging infrastructure is non-existent in the Midwest.

As for the used Model S vs. new LEAF 2.0? I think I may still have to concede to used Model S due to it's charging infrastructure. If you look at Plugshare, you'll see most Tesla Superchargers are 10s while all other types get less. Yes, I've leased a LEAF - 2 of them, 2013 & 2015.

<span>I get why the cars are being compared - both being 200+ mile EV's, but that where the similarities end. Really, comparing a Bolt with a <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=67" class="interlinkr">Model S<span class="tip">Visit the Model S Forum</span></a> is like comparing a Honda Fit with a BMW 7 series sedan.</span>

I've known quite a few people who were in the market for a new ride where last we talked it was a certain car (e.g. Prius) only to find out they bought another (e.g. Lexus). So it matters on the priority. For this discussion, the priority would be drivetrain & price. For the price, what do you get?

Those looking to prioritize ride height or parking will cross shop the Bolt against other cars where those cars would shine in that area.

 

[Takumi]

A used Model S will let you back at least $20K more than the Bolt, after taking into account the tax credits, so it's not much of a viable alternative.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2013-model-s-p85-40k.90026/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2013-model-s-85kwh-battery-80k-miles-39-500.86720/

Don't tell me that's not a viable option.

EDIT:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/6111555296.html
2013 Model S60 - $37k

 

[oilerlord]

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2013-model-s-p85-40k.90026/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2013-model-s-85kwh-battery-80k-miles-39-500.86720/

Don't tell me that's not a viable option.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "viable".

The P85 at $40K sounds too low (as others mentioned in that thread), but it's probably priced too low for a reason. I always buy used, but anything that's been in an accident (and priced well below market) is a big red flag for me, and usually not worth the risk. Personally, as much as I love the Model S, I wouldn't spend $40K on one with 80K miles on it. You have no idea how the battery was treated / maintained, and despite the happy talk of no battery degradation after 100K miles, it's a risk I'm not willing to take.

 

[Dgodfrey]

To gbob's point, used Teslas are in high demand and thus don't depreciate to the degree that other (BMW, Ford, GM, Mercedes, etc) do. My guess is that the Bolt will lose half it's value in 2-3 years. While that's a disadvantage for buyers, it's a big advantage for those looking to pick up a low mileage lease return somewhere down the road.

I get why the cars are being compared - both being 200+ mile EV's, but that where the similarities end. Really, comparing a Bolt with a Model S is like comparing a Honda Fit with a BMW 7 series sedan.

Agree, it's not an apples to apples comparison. They are drastically different physically and functionally to be considered either/or. One is a 4 passenger utility vehicle, the other can seat 7 in luxury. I've talked to a number of current EV owners looking at their next car and a lot of them favor the hatchback design of the Bolt over the Model 3 which is a little closer comparison. If your criteria is that flexible, the charging infrastructure would be what tips the scales for me. Not sure if you intend to use the car for trips outside your 100 mile circle of comfort or not though. I plan on only one car so as much as I like the practicality of the Bolt, it's completely impractical for my needs. I also would not buy a Bolt due to depreciation however would not hesitate for a moment to buy a Tesla, purely from a financial perspective.

 

[Takumi]

The other factor that I wanna see is if the other manufacturers - Nissan, BMW, GM, etc. - would offer a battery upgrade for their existing fleet. At least Tesla has shown that they may do that.

 

[sgt1372]

Most of the used Model S's that I've seen, which are usually 2012-2014 models, on Craiglist are mostly priced between $50-70k with very high disparity in pricing vs miles vs options. There are a few 2012-2013 models available in the $40k range which are probably being priced accordingly based on condition and mileage. As with all things, caveat emptor. In any event, a used Model S will still cost you much more Bolt but it's really not the same kind of car - apples and oranges to me -- and choosing between the 2 IMO requires an entirely a different set of priorities (other than just price).

I did think about a used Model S before I leased my Bolt and the main consideration was price. Didn't want or need a $40-50k+ car. I don't have more than $50k equity in all of the vehicles that I have now. Other considerations were: 1) concern over battery longevity, 2) Tesla's history of repair/warranty issues, 3) the high cost of repairs at a Tesla shop and 4) the lack of any warranty beyond whatever is left of the manufacturer's warranty. The Model S is also a HUGE car and there was a question of whether it would fit in my garage (it can but only w/inches to spare) and whether I wanted or needed another sedan; I didn't, my BMW was good enough. The thing that Tesla fans tout as one of the most important things about a Tesla -- the Supercharging network -- was NOT at all important to me.

For me, the Bolt made sense because I got a new car for a cheap price. Only $2k net down after rebates and only $305/mo for the lease. Range is about the same in each car w/the 60kw version and I only planned to use the car (whether a Bolt or Model S) locally. Hence, no need for the Supercharger. Also no need for a sedan, any passenger carrying capacity or trunk space beyond what the Bolt provided. Hence, my decision to get a Bolt.

Everyone else's decision matrix would differ based on their individual priorities.

 

[michael]

I agree on your supercharger comments. I see very little advantage to me. The few times I need to go a long distance, I'll take the Volt. 99% of the time, I'm confident the Bolt's 200 or so miles will be plenty to get me home...if not, I'll get a squirt of juice somewhere.

I'm also deterred by the Tesla's large size and potential for expensive repairs.

 

[oilerlord]

The other factor that I wanna see is if the other manufacturers - Nissan, BMW, GM, etc. - would offer a battery upgrade for their existing fleet. At least Tesla has shown that they may do that.

Nice thought, but it's not going to happen. We're not even seeing much of a secondary market for battery upgrades, so that tells you something - there's no money in it. Consider the relatively small audience buying EV's vs the amount of expensive R&D required to design, engineer, crash test re-certify, and market a battery upgrade option to the handful of people that actually own their EV instead of leasing them.

 

[Nagorak]

I think it's too early for there to be aftermarket battery upgrades. It's too small of a market right now, and the technology is too rare. In a decade if EVs are more ubiquitous it would not surprise me if you could do an aftermarket upgrade. I think the batteries are similar enough that a shop that figures out how to do one model could figure out how to do many different cars and combined there would be enough business to be viable.

That being said, I wouldn't buy a car today based on that projection.

 

[boltage]

Tesla offers battery upgrades for the Roadster: https://shop.teslamotors.com/products/roadster-3-0-upgrade

Expensive, though ($29,000).

In theory, the Model S should be easier to upgrade, since the battery is provisioned for quick change (that was demonstrated but not implemented otherwise). However, upgrades would require different software if the battery has a different capacity, and suspension changes if the battery has a different weight. The latter is probably why the only upgrades offered so far involve the removal of software limitations (e.g. upgrading 60 to 75 where the 60 was a software-limited 75 to begin with) rather than any actual changes to the battery or other hardware.

In other words, for now, do not assume that the EV that you buy now will be easily upgradable in the future.

 

[Anonymous]

My best friend, who has forgotten more about things automotive than I will ever know, was going to follow me into a Bolt EV lease in February when his Volt lease ended.

When he discovered, to our mutual shock, that the Bolt EV contained no internal Nav, irrespective of what GM CEO Mary Barra promised at her 2016 CES keynote speech in January, he cancelled his Bolt EV lease reservation after he found a used Model S lease satisfactory to his needs that was available in February.

 

[DucRider]

My best friend, who has forgotten more about things automotive than I will ever know, was going to follow me into a Bolt EV lease in February when his Volt lease ended.

When he discovered, to our mutual shock, that the Bolt EV contained no internal Nav, irrespective of what GM CEO Mary Barra promised at her 2016 CES keynote speech in January, he cancelled his Bolt EV lease reservation after he found a used Model S lease satisfactory to his needs that was available in February.

Most buyer would rather connect their phone for NAV than pay $1K+ for a NAV system (typical option cost). Plus $xx per year to keep the info a year or two out of date.

The nature of the Bolt and lack of charging infrastructure make cross country travel nearly impossible, so lack of cell signal is not a factor for most. You can get a data plan for a loooooong time (OnStar data is $10/mo) for the several thousand dollars a built in NAV system costs.

No vehicle is going to please everyone. I've heard some claim they won't buy the Bolt because of the lack of a built in garage door opener. :?

 

[PV1]

I'd say that either a used Model S or a new Model 3 would be about the same value. The Model 3 is only a little smaller than the S, and both are considerably larger than the Bolt. The Model S would still pull ahead of the 3 in that they have free Supercharging.

Tesla's main advantage is their charging infrastructure and the ability to use the CHAdeMO network as well as their own, where the Bolt is limited to CCS. As for nav, use your phone or buy a Garmin for a couple hundred bucks. Don't garage door openers usually come with remotes anyway?

The biggest thing that's causing 2012-2013 Model S depreciation is their lack of Autopilot. They simply don't have the hardware to do it. Easiest way to tell if it has the hardware or not is to look at the lower front bumper. Cars with Autopilot have a black box in the center of the lower mesh. Also, the cruise control stalk is below the turn signal stalk on AP cars (2012-2013 models have the turn signals below the cruise control).

 

[Anonymous]

My best friend, who has forgotten more about things automotive than I will ever know, was going to follow me into a Bolt EV lease in February when his Volt lease ended.

When he discovered, to our mutual shock, that the Bolt EV contained no internal Nav, irrespective of what GM CEO Mary Barra promised at her 2016 CES keynote speech in January, he cancelled his Bolt EV lease reservation after he found a used Model S lease satisfactory to his needs that was available in February.

Most buyer would rather connect their phone for NAV than pay $1K+ for a NAV system (typical option cost). Plus $xx per year to keep the info a year or two out of date. I leased a Premiere will ALL options, so I am not all buyers; I thought I had already paid for it!

The nature of the Bolt and lack of charging infrastructure make cross country travel nearly impossible, so lack of cell signal is not a factor for most. You can get a data plan for a loooooong time (OnStar data is $10/mo) for the several thousand dollars a built in NAV system costs. On my last long distance drive the $10 per month OnStar internet plan ran out in ONE DAY!

No vehicle is going to please everyone. I've heard some claim they won't buy the Bolt because of the lack of a built in garage door opener. :?

A map-based nav system is important not just for general traveling, but to find destination chargers, and an EV-focused version was promised at the Bolt’s January reveal at CES in Las Vegas by GM CEO Mary Barra.

“Another way we are looking to save everyone’s time is by offering navigation with EV-specific routing. With EV Navigation mapping, Bolt EV gives options — like routes that maximize your range or provide access to charging stations,” said Barra. “Bolt EV also offers an advanced range predictor, which accurately estimates driving range based on topography… temperature… and driving habits.”

When asked if the 2017 model year would get this feature, Chevrolet Communications rep Fred Ligouri confirmed it would, while remaining vague on the particulars.

“Yes, we will meet the commitment made by our CEO, and those are details we’ll delve into closer to launch,” said Ligouri.

http://www.hybridcars.com/early-bolt-evs-may-not-have-promised-navigation/

DId the GM CEO promise a built in garage door opener?

 

[DucRider]

I leased a Premiere will ALL options, so I am not all buyers; I thought I had already paid for it!

Oops!
Not a good idea to count on a PR piece close to a year before the cars are shipped. Better to read the specs and literature on the actual production vehicle. If the integrated NAV was a crucial factor, best to confirm before signing the paperwork.

When asked if the 2017 model year would get this feature, Chevrolet Communications rep Fred Ligouri confirmed it would, while remaining vague on the particulars.

“Yes, we will meet the commitment made by our CEO, and those are details we’ll delve into closer to launch,” said Ligouri.

Musk promised the Model X more than 2 years before it's actual delivery. I expect that sometime in the next two years the Bolt will indeed have a nav system that takes into account all of the listed variables. But, like other manufacturers, it may require a data plan to access the required information (weather, traffic, topography, etc) to do the calculations.

On the i3, the Nav package is $2,350, but includes similar features to the Confidence II pkg you purchased on the Bolt. Back out that $495 and you are at $1855. Plus $141/yr for updates. Think you can get an unlimited data plan for $65/mo or less?

 

[Anonymous]

I didn't count on anything!

I was getting the Bolt EV no matter what. I was Just disappointed GM's CEO didnt have the guts of her convictions.

As I pointed out they lost out on my friend's sale!

You are right: it is LESS! $20 per month for unlimited internet