~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

[AyeJay]

Hi All,

A Vehicle to Home power system is on the horizon & it looks like the time has come.

Nissan and other makers are beginning to view electric cars not just as transportation, but as mobile energy-storage units that can provide emergency power and take stress off electrical grids.

https://youtu.be/zLs7YOjC2mE

-- With the big California utility companies efforts to squash rooftop Solar, de-centralized power production via unfair net metering & now through so-called 'time of use' rate structures this setup is going to be more attractive than ever.

It's like when Apple invented/took the personal computer to the public ..

Will Chevrolet be adding this capability to it's EV's any time soon?

(Please!)

 

[michael]

This is a bad idea. Your battery has a finite life. I wouldn't waste it relieving the power company of peak load.

If you want a battery load leveling system, get one intended for that purpose. Or ideally someone will offer systems that make use of degraded batteries from cars.

But I would not use my car's battery for load leveling. For emergency use, sure, but not for leveling.

 

[LeftieBiker]

People using the L2H system have noted accelerated battery degradation, and I believe I know why. The Leaf pack is passively air-cooled. The system does nothing to cool the pack when the car is parked, but does provide significant cooling while driving, if the ambient air is cooler than the pack. The above scenario provides zero cooling for the battery.

 

[oilerlord]

I think EVERYTHING else would need to change before "this" happens. I get the dog-head tilts just trying to explain what a kWh is.

 

[geobrian]

This is a great idea, just not very practical with today's technology. As battery chemistries evolve and degradation becomes less of an issue, this idea will become more mainstream. It's an interesting video to think about what our energy consumption and storage might look like 40 years down the road.

 

[AyeJay]

This is a bad idea. Your battery has a finite life. I wouldn't waste it relieving the power company of peak load.

Thank you for the response michael ..

Presumably you would be getting paid by your local utility company for any power your car shares with the grid.
If you have solar on your home's rooftop the 60kW storage your car provides that system would mean a profit would be realized and probably offset the cost any battery replacement.

Our cars generally sit unused most of their lives. Why not give them an active 'home power/clean grid' function when we are not using them for transportation?

AJ

 

[michael]

This is a bad idea. Your battery has a finite life. I wouldn't waste it relieving the power company of peak load.

Thank you for the response michael ..

Presumably you would be getting paid by your local utility company for any power your car shares with the grid.
If you have solar on your home's rooftop the 60kW storage your car provides that system would mean a profit would be realized and probably offset the cost any battery replacement.

Our cars generally sit unused most of their lives. Why not give them an active 'home power/clean grid' function when we are not using them for transportation?

AJ

Because it wears the battery out. If it were without cost to the life of your car, sure why not. But the Bolt battery, for example, carries an 80,000 mile warranty. This represents approximately 80,000/200 = 400 equivalent full charge/discharge cycles.

If one uses, for example, 1000 kWh per month in your house, this represents approximately 1000/60 = 16 full charge/discharge cycles, approximately 200 cycles per year.

So one could be using up the battery life over two years by using it for grid storage. These numbers are very rough estimates, of course, but the point is that the grid leveling usage will be wearing out the battery very possibly faster than the driving function does.

If you want battery load leveling, it will be much better to get a separate unit dedicated to the purpose and designed for that purpose.

If you want to help the utilities manage load and make a profit, simply install solar and push energy back into the grid during the peak afternoon hours. Wearing out your car battery isn't necessary.

 

[gpsman]

Vehicle to Grid ( or V2G ) has been expermented with for over 10 years. I participated in a small scale version in 2007. Well, not participated with my car (I didn’t have a BEV at the time) but I watched others do it.

Yes. It is like net metering. You get credited with what you give, and likely even a discount for what you use (like interest on money in the bank, they pay you “extra” for borrowing your battery power, since it may save them from firing up another boiler).

 

[Chargeit]

This wouldn't work for us. During the day our EVs are out and about at work, etc, using up stored electricity. We recharge from the grid when we get home at night. While we're gone, our solar panels are pumping juice onto the grid to electrify our neighbors. There's no way to get the solar panel output into our cars unless we stayed home. The only better solution to our situation would be to add a stationary battery and go off-grid, and we don't have quite enough solar panels to do that... yet.

 

[Marktm]

Has anyone actually installed the Nissan V2G/V2H equipment in the US? For several years, it's been discussed, but seems still only been available in Japan (or Europe)? There is a company making a small V2H CHAdeMO unit - just not very seamless!

Some random thoughts/considerations;
- Installed, stationary battery costs (Lithium tech), based on $$/kWh, are similar to the total cost of a new Bolt
- With smart grid and smart charging - it is possible that battery degradation will not be an issue. This would of course be highly use dependent and at this time only be true for those using a small % of their EV battery and/or those at home during much of the day. However, with bi-directional energy capability at work locations, this will change dramatically (IMO).
- As 10's-100's millions of EVs (including commercial) become grid connected, with large kWh batteries, the resultant potential energy storage can provide the stabilization capabilities needed to incorporate majority renewables as energy sources - (2030?).
- Stationary, inductive charging (or similar convenient methodology) might be a necessity?
- Is the production of this massive (how do you describe 100 billion pounds?) of batteries any more ecological than burning billions of barrels of fuels - is it possible?
- Not surprising the big guys are getting into batteries.

 

[WetEV]

Because it wears the battery out. If it were without cost to the life of your car, sure why not. But the Bolt battery, for example, carries an 80,000 mile warranty. This represents approximately 80,000/200 = 400 equivalent full charge/discharge cycles.

If one uses, for example, 1000 kWh per month in your house, this represents approximately 1000/60 = 16 full charge/discharge cycles, approximately 200 cycles per year.

If you want battery load leveling, it will be much better to get a separate unit dedicated to the purpose and designed for that purpose.

You need to recharge anyway, so having a way for the charge time and rate controlled by the grid would be a way to stabilize the grid without significant cost to you. You don't need a DCQC bidirectional unit to do this, an L2 charger that can be remotely controlled as to start/stop and perhaps rate would do. I'd want a local override, so if I wanted to charge now I could still do it.

 

[michael]

Yes exactly and this is very routine. Utilities set time of use rates to influence people to charge when iits advantageous. Some utilities already provide discounts for those willing to accept forced shutdowns of air conditioning during times of High load.

All that makes good sense.

But wearing out a car battery to help the utilities does not make sense to me

 

[oilerlord]

Has anyone actually installed the Nissan V2G/V2H equipment in the US? For several years, it's been discussed, but seems still only been available in Japan (or Europe)? There is a company making a small V2H CHAdeMO unit - just not very seamless!

If you have to ask the question, you probably already know the answer.

As Michael mentioned, solar already helps level out the grid. Even when overcapacity happens; a generator comes offline or the electricity is sold (or even sometimes given away for free) to other states.

The grid continues to get cleaner through the use of renewable energy generation. While there is merit to V2H but getting into the logistics of implementing such a system becomes an exercise akin to herding cats. For one thing, who pays for it? Pocos could look at the Uber model where they'd have no investment in a fleet of thousands of EV's, and even convince a few people that premature battery wear is a GREAT idea by throwing them a small bone - but I doubt GM would love early battery warranty claims, or receiving a higher percentage of off-lease EV's with higher than normal battery wear. There are other home battery solutions that were better designed for to store energy for residential purposes.

The market hasn't stepped up to invest in a V2H / smart grid most likely because the payback in terms of economic and environmental doesn't add up. It's even tough to make the argument that Tesla's Powerwall is worth the investment - does it offer any return on investment? No. Is it a win for the environment? Maybe. Is it really cool? Absolutely. The same could be said for V2H.

When I watch that video, the reality of getting from where we are now, to a world in that video is a very large chasm to cross. It seems like an investment in a lot of time, money, and effort to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[WetEV]

It's even tough to make the argument that Tesla's Powerwall is worth the investment - does it offer any return on investment? No. Is it a win for the environment? Maybe. Is it really cool? Absolutely. The same could be said for V2H.

One aspect of home battery storage is power outage backup. If you need to cover fairly short and fairly frequent power outages, a battery or V2H might be cheaper than a generator. Also faster to start up and quieter.

 

[oilerlord]

One aspect of home battery storage is power outage backup. If you need to cover fairly short and fairly frequent power outages, a battery or V2H might be cheaper than a generator. Also faster to start up and quieter.

Yeah, it's a backup power solution - but an expensive one. Other, more task-oriented solutions exist. Natural gas generators are relatively quiet, and 14kW models can be had for under $4K.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Q0KJII/ref=psdc_348967011_t1_B01M3P0OGA

A few years ago, I picked up a used Honda 3kW generator for emergency backup purposes. Cost me $800. Never had to use it, but gives me peace of mind if/when we do.

Perhaps one day all EV's will have a "emergency home backup" menu option, and we'll be able to plug in a $100 J1772 adapter cord from Walmart that plugs into the common dryer outlet plug to provide emergency backup power. I'd be all for that. I just don't think it's coming anytime soon. Until then, the combination of tried, true, and inexpensive works for me.

 

[AyeJay]

Thank you all for this continuing discussion.

I'm sure all of us agree that an electric vehicle drive train is far superior to that which includes an Internal combustion engine.
The state of batteries as electrical energy storage is another matter at this point in time.

Lithium Ion chemistries have been a HUGE improvement over other, less efficient, less robust options however there certainly are cost, battery longevity as well as environmental concerns while the production of such systems ramps up.

IMO: Hydrogen as an energy carrier/method of storing electrical energy and ultimately hybrid BEV/FCEV vehicles are going to be part of the equation very soon.

The other salient issue here is the de-centralization of cleaner, more efficient energy production and the stationary storage capacity which will drive development in that direction. Frankly, if the Big energy monopolies were doing a better job of transitioning to clean energy infrastructure this would be less of an issue. Unfortunately the baggage most them bring to the table precludes their efforts toward that. Don't get me wrong there will always be a need for grid power going forward in the industrialized world.. just not as big a need.

As more of us become power producers via rooftop solar, other micro-grid developments the utility companies large and small will be confronted with a very real need for Distributed Energy Resource (DER) planning. So-called smart meters and the time-of-use metering they enable are just the beginning for that new paradigm.

We live in interesting times and I'm very pleased and grateful to be sharing the early stage adoption with all of you good people.

Thank you, .. AJ

 

[WetEV]

One aspect of home battery storage is power outage backup. If you need to cover fairly short and fairly frequent power outages, a battery or V2H might be cheaper than a generator. Also faster to start up and quieter.

Yeah, it's a backup power solution - but an expensive one. Other, more task-oriented solutions exist. Natural gas generators are relatively quiet, and 14kW models can be had for under $4K.

This is all expensive.

A generator gives longer run time, and can easily provide higher powers. Cost is plus installation. Also maintenance. Batteries can be cheaper to install. A battery backup can be cheaper, especially for shorter outages.

At my last house, I was quoted $13K and up to install a generator. Much of expense was getting the natural gas to where the generator needed to be, didn't depend much on size of generator. I don't think this is "typical", I was expecting less than that. I didn't buy a generator. I bought battery backups for temporally needed medical equipment for about 24 hours of run time, and some LED lanterns. Plan was hotel if longer outage, as most outages are shorter that was probably a better bet than a gasoline generator to backup the backup batteries.

Plan on $200+ per year plus $2+ per hour of outage time for maintenance. You can do it for less, if you want to change oil and such. Plus fuel.

Cost for a Powerwall 2 is $6500 installed. If you can live with 5kW and 13.5kWh. I don't think there is any maintenance. This wasn't an option when I was looking at generators, or I probably would have gotten one. Makes the most sense if you expect frequent short outages. I don't think you can get an auto start natural gas generator installed for anything close that. To get 14kW, would need 3 PW2 units for $19.5k. Still might be cheaper installed than the $4k generator including maintenance. Of course, if you have a week long outage the generator will likely still be running and the batteries are likely empty, unless you have enough solar. Should change the oil at least once in the week (every hundred hours), and maybe more maintenance.

 

[oilerlord]

At my last house, I was quoted $13K and up to install a generator. Much of expense was getting the natural gas to where the generator needed to be, didn't depend much on size of generator. I don't think this is "typical", I was expecting less than that.

This is unusual, not typical. We had the company that sold us our nat gas barbeque run a line from our basement out to the back of our house, with two outlets - one to the bbq, another to our patio heater. 900 bucks including labor & materials. Last month, we installed an on-demand nat gas water heater at our place in Phoenix. First company came in and said we'd need to run an entire new gas line...said could "easily" be $8,000. Right. Got a second opinion...used the existing line. Works perfectly. I think HVAC/Gas/Plumbing is the wild west. They prey on the unsuspecting.

 

[WetEV]

This is unusual, not typical.

Yes, I think I said that.

Not everything is typical.

 

[MikeDabrowski2017]

Been a big DIY guy most of my life been playing with solar many years and finally am in a good place.
http://old.99mpg.com/blog/pluggingintothesun/
Retired so I have lots of tinker time.
50 kwh lithium pack as my home solar storage
8500 watt outback radian inverter
Had a 48v 1000 AH lead acid pack that was getting tired
Made a new pack from salvage battery packs from junkyard lithium Ford energi plug in hybrid packs
Reconfigured the packs,from series to parallel
each module is 500 AH @ 4V ( 21 parallel 24 AH cells )
15 modules in series for a nominal 48v battery
2 of the 15 module series packs in parallel make up the full battery
7800 watt solar array does the charging
When the battery are full I turn on my EVSE juice box set for 16A and can charge the bolt at 3840 watts and still have capacity to run my house can adjust charge rate with cell phone app on the fly so if it gets cloudy I can reduce charge rate to compensate
Just got the system running last week and am very happy so far
Can run my place for 3-5 days with a full charge on the solar batteries
It is Feb in new England so the days are short and managed to put 20kwh in my Bolt on the last sunny day
Green Free power, ,free transportation .


All the junkyard packs had no problems all cells were fine
put some Chinese active cell balancers on the packs which are working to keep the packs in balance
Can even charge the car at night if necessary.