Range Issues?

[dandrewk]

If you need heat, and your car has heated seats, using the heated seats is much more energy efficient than using the heater.

It's also not an either/or situation. Use the heated seats and wheel if you have them, and run the heater temp and blower speed as low as you can and still be comfortable. As a longtime Leaf driver I'm very familiar with that situation.

Don't have heated seats and wasn't expecting a 10% range hit plus for staying minimally warm and keeping the windows from fogging up. GM didn't mention how severe some of these things would be when I bought the car.

You seem focused on blaming GM. The types of range penalties have been well known every since EVs came into existence. I don't believe it's up to the manufacturer to spell out every conceivable, potential issue concerning mpg/mpge. Besides, where do you think the acronym "YMMV" came from?

Nevertheless, the range issues you are describing are really bad, so you may want to take steps to see if it's anything you are doing. It could very well be an issue with your Bolt.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Don't have heated seats and wasn't expecting a 10% range hit plus for staying minimally warm and keeping the windows from fogging up. GM didn't mention how severe some of these things would be when I bought the car.

If it's only a 10% drop then that isn't bad. It is indeed well known among EV drivers that using heat costs range, but dealers should be required to tell prospective EV buyers about that, rather than rely on them doing all their own research.

 

[dandrewk]

It's also well known that using the AC will severely impact MPGs on ICE cars.

Yet, in the dozens of ICE cars I have purchased in the past, not a single car salesman has mentioned this fact.

 

[DaveInAvl]

150 miles at the speeds you're describing are about three hours. If the heater is working hard (some people here have suggested it's as high as 9 kW) that alone would eat up half your battery capacity. Even if the heater draws no more than the 6 kW my Focus did, it's still nearly a third of your battery capacity wasted.

Speaking as a former LEAF lessee, I'd like to see you spend three hours in an EV with the heater running at 6 - 9 KW

 

[Anonymous]

{mod: ...edit...}

I think the OP came to this thread for helpful comments about his problem!

... which you didn't provide with the above comment. Post edited to remove (other) poster ID. Please avoid criticism of other posters. Thank You.

 

[LeftieBiker]

It's also well known that using the AC will severely impact MPGs on ICE cars.

Yet, in the dozens of ICE cars I have purchased in the past, not a single car salesman has mentioned this fact.

The A/C doesn't usually have a large effect on ICE cars. Mainly the smaller fours with automatics. The ICE vehicle isn't a new market option, either.

 

[oilerlord]

It's also well known that using the AC will severely impact MPGs on ICE cars.

Yet, in the dozens of ICE cars I have purchased in the past, not a single car salesman has mentioned this fact.

Severely impact?

Let's be clear...the OP isn't talking about a couple of MPG's, he's expecting 238 miles and the car returned 140.

There isn't an ICEV on the road that will lose nearly half it's EPA rated MPG because it's cold outside and/or you turn on the HVAC. EV's are way more prone to losing their EPA range than ICEV's are.

No doubt, the OP is new to EV's so let's cut him a break. He's was simply told (or understood) one thing, but he's getting a different result. Sure, YMMV applies but it varies a whole lot more with EV's. He came here for help, so let's help.

 

[Anonymous]

{Mod: ...edit... Other poster references removed.} ... well known here on this forum for raising red herrings and then trying to knock them down. Best just ignored or just ICE'd! :lol:

WARNING. No personal attacks against other forum posters. Thank You.

 

[boltage]

This is only the beginning. Until the EPA updates it's testing cycles to reflect real-world* driving, dozens more posts like these will come. The car hasn't even started selling in areas that experience cold temperatures.

*real-world driving includes but is not limited to: Using the heater / air conditioning / and speeds above 65 MPH.

The most recent revision to the EPA testing in for 2008 did add higher speed, warm temperature (95F) with air conditioning, and cold (20F) temperature testing. Presumably, they were only thinking about ICE vehicles where heat is essentially free but air conditioning can be expensive, rather than EVs where heat can be expensive, since there is no mention of heater use in the cold temperature test.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

 

[DucRider]

This is only the beginning. Until the EPA updates it's testing cycles to reflect real-world* driving, dozens more posts like these will come. The car hasn't even started selling in areas that experience cold temperatures.

*real-world driving includes but is not limited to: Using the heater / air conditioning / and speeds above 65 MPH.

The most recent revision to the EPA testing in for 2008 did add higher speed, warm temperature (95F) with air conditioning, and cold (20F) temperature testing. Presumably, they were only thinking about ICE vehicles where heat is essentially free but air conditioning can be expensive, rather than EVs where heat can be expensive, since there is no mention of heater use in the cold temperature test.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

Manufacturers can use either the older 2 cycle test, or the updated 5 cycle test that includes the higher speeds, heat and A/C.
Those using the 5 cycle:
BMW
BYD
Nissan

Everyone else is using the 2 Cycle test. The results of this test are multiplied by .7 to better reflect "real world" results. The resulting range number is easily achieved (actually exceeded) in matching the test: ~70 degrees, mix of city/hwy driving, etc

Driving an EV is different - some pros and some cons. It will never perform exactly like an ICE.

A cell phone performs very differently than a land line - people have adapted.
An LCD/LED/Plasma display performs very differently than a CRT - people have adapted.

Yes, there are drawbacks that potential owners should be aware of. If they talk to any EV owner, they will be glad to share them (and tips and tricks to adapt). Is the responsibility on the dealer? Manufacturer? Or shared among them all?

I actively participate in and organize events that bring owners and potential owners together. Some have their expectations lowered, others are pleasantly surprised at how well an EV would work for them. I encourage others to do the same:
Participate in (or start your own) National Drive Electric Week event
https://driveelectricweek.org/
Join the Electric Auto Association (and the local chapter if there's one near you)
http://www.electricauto.org/

It's important to promote EV's by providing real world experience and feedback. It's more fun to talk about the great benefits, but equally important to point out ALL the differences - both positive and negative.

 

[oilerlord]

Manufacturers can use either the older 2 cycle test, or the updated 5 cycle test that includes the higher speeds, heat and A/C.
Those using the 5 cycle:
BMW
BYD
Nissan

Everyone else is using the 2 Cycle test. The results of this test are multiplied by .7 to better reflect "real world" results. The resulting range number is easily achieved (actually exceeded) in matching the test: ~70 degrees, mix of city/hwy driving, etc

Driving an EV is different - some pros and some cons. It will never perform exactly like an ICE.

It's important to promote EV's by providing real world experience and feedback. It's more fun to talk about the great benefits, but equally important to point out ALL the differences - both positive and negative.

Keywords: "The resulting range number is easily achieved in matching the test". No doubt. The problem is, the average annual temperature for the US (excluding Alaska & Hawaii) is 52.7F - not 70F. Let's ask the EPA to update the testing cycle at 52.7F, with the heater on - and we'll see if the Bolt returns 238 miles.

Because GM has plans to sell the Bolt in all 50 states, we're going to see a lot more threads like this one. We should't be surprised when some of us can't match the conditions of the test.

There are dozens of other threads that discuss all the great benefits of driving an EV. I think the OP is just looking for feedback about his range issue. Let's provide that.

 

[DucRider]

Keywords: "The resulting range number is easily achieved in matching the test". No doubt. The problem is, the average annual temperature for the US (excluding Alaska & Hawaii) is 52.7F - not 70F. Let's ask the EPA to update the testing cycle at 52.7F, with the heater on - and we'll see if the Bolt returns 238 miles.

Because GM has plans to sell the Bolt in all 50 states, we're going to see a lot more threads like this one. We should't be surprised when some of us can't match the conditions of the test.

There are dozens of other threads that discuss all the great benefits of driving an EV. I think the OP is just looking for feedback about his range issue. Let's provide that.

So you think that range should be advertised for the worse case scenario?

Or does the consumer have some responsibility to learn about new technology.

Can they sue their TV manufacturer because "Judge Judy" doesn't display in 4K 3D?

Common sense dictates that 238 miles is an estimate and an average. The EPA even gives separate city and hwy figures (which the OP was apparently unaware of as his complaint is not getting 238 miles of highway driving).

Should ICE vehicle be labeled with the MPG they will acheive in -10 degree snowy weather driving up a mountain pass? It is certainly a lot less than the estimate on the current Monroney Label.

"Caution - make sure lighter is extinguished before placing in pocket" "Caution - contents could be hot" "Do not iron while wearing shirt". Stupid should hurt sometimes.

Do we require people to read a book on EV's before purchasing? And then sign a waiver saying they have? How many questions on forums are annswred by a quick read of the owners manual.

When buying a home with an HOA, the purchaser is required to sign a paper acknowledging that they have received (and read) the governing documents. In every development I have lived, there are many homeowners that swear they never received them.

Do we put a chart on the sticker that is correlated to temperature and speed for range? With additional charts for with heat? With AC? with climate control set at different temps? Turing the Monroney Label into a book will not stop these threads. Once you put a hard number (ie winter range 140) on the label, if they do not achieve that lower number (up a mountain pass @ 85 mph in sub-zero temps, i.e.), they are still upset.

It is, after all, always someone else's fault.

The Monroney Label is designed to allow comparison between vehicles. It is not an absolute. Labeling the Bolt with "Range of less than 100 to greater than 300 miles depending on speed, temperature, precipitation, traffic, grade, altitude, climate control settings and other variables" is certainly accurate.

The LEAF label could read <30 to >120. I'm not sure consumers would find this useful.

As to the OP and feedback, I cannot see where he answered with his m/kWh figures and if his 140 miles of range was actual or the guess-o-meter display. Without that info, it's hard to tell what might be going on.

 

[Anonymous]

As to the OP and feedback, I cannot see where he answered with his m/kWh figures and if his 140 miles of range was actual or the guess-o-meter display. Without that info, it's hard to tell what might be going on.

I agree. I am starting to think that he is having the same problem that I had as described earlier (185 miles) and just needs to follow a reset procedure as I did.

Also, I understand that Leaf owners call it a guess-o-meter because that is what it is for them; but after 3,500+ miles on my Bolt I am starting to have a newly found respect for that Mileage Gauge and I have NEVER refer to it as a GOM!

 

[oilerlord]

So you think that range should be advertised for the worse case scenario?

We don't have to go to extremes, or "worst case" scenarios. I merely stated that the annual average temperature for the US is 52F, and that a reasonable EPA test cycle might include that temperature, and with the heater on.

For example - the Kia Soul EV uses a heat pump. My Mercedes B250e does not. Both cars have 28kWh usable battery capacity, and are rated at around the same range. If the testing cycle included using the heater, my car would be at a disadvantage because of the heater's comparatively high power consumption, and may have caused Mercedes to think twice about cheaping out with an inefficient resistive heater - like what happened with the Bolt. I'm convinced that the current EPA testing cycle is the biggest reason why my car (and the Bolt) don't have heat pumps. All EV's should have them.

For members living in the Bay area, 52F isn't uncommon and we've seen sub 3 mi/kWh efficiency posts on this board. As it sits, EPA testing is skewed towards the "best case" scenario of 72F - which isn't all that helpful for people that live in cooler areas.

 

[drdiesel1]

I smell a rat in the wood pile :mrgreen:

I drove mine in Jan and Feb with temps down below 40° and
still made over 200 miles per charge. I even ran my HVAC, heated seats and steering wheel.
Never even came close to the claimed mileage the OP is claiming. I live in CA and it's very hilly around me.
My car is not garage kept, nor do I preheat.

I can gain back any extra amperage load required, on the return trip. It's not uphill both ways :idea:

Unless you're driving WOT all the time, this is not possible. :!:

 

[michael]

Here's an article showing fleet observed ranges vs temperature for Volt and Leaf

http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/

Interestingly, the Leaf performance fell less at low temps than the Volt. The article doesn't discuss usage of climate control--I guess that's wrapped into the performance. Possibly Leaf drivers froze themselves to preserve range while Volt drivers were willing to use the heater. And possibly it's due to Leaf's use of a heat pump (at least some years/models) vs Volt's resistive heating.

Volt was down to about half range at 25 F vs 70F

 

[rhscbolt]

Thank you all for all the comments. Some are very insightful, some are no so.
I was really trying to see if anyone else is experience the issues as I am. While I don't seem to hear of anyone else having as severe of an issue as I do, it also doesn't sound like many get the supposed average world 238 figure either. Sounds like then max figure would really have to be obtained by a perfect driving performance.
I bought the Bolt to use as a commute vehicle of around 140 miles round trip. I'm rural and I have to make it there and back home or call the tow truck. So, I thought I would be eliminating the range anxiety problem with the 238 figure. No so. What should a reasonable person expect when one makes a purchase like this, I'm not an idiot like some think and understand YMMV. I also understand all the factors involved, some of which I can control, like driving technique and accessories. But I can't control terrain and outside temperature and I do need to run the heater some to at least keep the windows from fogging. I just did not expect the extreme impact I'm experiencing. Didn't the ICE manufactures get hammered when mileage was not meeting published figures? And those were nowhere near what I experience percentage wise.
The dealer and the Chevy customer assistance are hilarious. The dealer tells me "We don't make the cars, we just sell them, Call Chevy". Oh and we''ll buy the car back from you for about 60% of what you paid. Chevy tells me I'm an idiot and I should have done more homework on electric cars and how fabulous the Bolt is.
The bottom line is I've learned that I guess I really am an idiot for reading all the reviews and not realizing that its all mostly hype. And then thinking that GM or the dealer is going to try and help of with a outside of the norm case like mine.

 

[oilerlord]

I bought the Bolt to use as a commute vehicle of around 140 miles round trip. I'm rural and I have to make it there and back home or call the tow truck. So, I thought I would be eliminating the range anxiety problem with the 238 figure. No so. What should a reasonable person expect when one makes a purchase like this, I'm not an idiot like some think and understand YMMV. I also understand all the factors involved, some of which I can control, like driving technique and accessories. But I can't control terrain and outside temperature and I do need to run the heater some to at least keep the windows from fogging.

I do empathize with you, and your range experience - but to a point. From my (and other's experience), regardless of the optimistic 238 EPA number, 140+ miles is a cakewalk with a 60kWh battery unless you're under 32F, blasting the heater, or otherwise driving like you stole it. Perhaps you're getting faked out by the "guess-o-meter" mileage display, and not paying enough attention to the mi/kWh. 3 mi/kWh returns 180 miles of range...more than enough for your commute.

You've been given a lot of good advice; try some of it.

 

[drdiesel1]

Sorry, but I get much better than the EPA rating in real world commuting. Here's a shot of my IP
with all commute except one weekend day of driving. It's difficult to understand your range issue's without
seeing/knowing driving habits and it's my opinion it's the way you drive the car.

Without HVAC

 

[drdiesel1]

Here's a full charge rating with 3 days of commute and one Saturday driving.
This was a Monday mornings range indication with a temp below 40°