On the state of the affordable long-range electric car

[Arroyo]

http://www.lacar.com/chevys-bolt-ev/

"It’s been almost two years since the all-electric Chevrolet Bolt EV yanked the mantle from the Tesla Model 3 as the first affordable long-range electric car stage. While the 3 has finally arrived, the affordable version is still a ways off.

The Bolt EV took the electric car manufacturers by surprise. None, probably, more so than Nissan, who just introduced its second-generation Leaf, falling about 88 miles short of the Bolt in the range department (Nissan promises a mid-stream update that exceeds 200 miles).

Tesla has finally reached its self-imposed goal of making 5,000 Model 3s per week. It did so in the final week of the last quarter. In the words of its CEO, Elon Musk, Tesla “just became a real car company.” But the $35,000 Tesla Model 3 is still nowhere in sight. Tesla’s future remains a mystery, as the high production demands keep the company strapped for the working capital we hope it continues to have.

So, for those looking for an affordable, long-range electric vehicle, from an established (“real”) car company, the Bolt EV remains the only show in town."

 

[iwatson]

I recently purchased a slightly used 2017 Bolt EV Premier (with 11,000 miles on the odometer). I spent more than I really wanted to getting the MSRP listed $43,000 dollar car for $30,750 because someone tried it out before me. Of course I didn't get the $7500 rebate because I'm not the original owner, but I did get the remainder of the factory warranty. Truth be told my income is not such where I'd receive the full rebate anyway. So getting the car for $12,000 (roughly) off-list just for letting someone else drive it first is not bad. I would have preferred to get it in the low to mid $20,000 range but it's a matter of cost vs wait time.

I am not one who bought the Bolt as a Tesla alternative, which seems to be how it is always depicted. Do I think the Tesla is a nice car? Sure, but for several reasons it's just not for me. My former daily driver was my 2011 Chevrolet Volt. With it's 35 mile AER it was plenty of electric car for my daily commute rarely using it's gasoline engine. Also rarely using it for road trips. First of all I've had very limited time to take road trips. It's funny how almost everyone who knows that I now drive a fully electric car always say "what about when you go out of town?" I wonder do they really go out of town that often? Or are they like me, spending most of their time in town? Anyway an electric (even a Tesla) is going to be less convenient than a gasoline powered vehicle on a road trip for the foreseeable future, so would I really want to spend $20,000 dollars more for a Tesla? Secondly, my Volt is a bit cramped for a road trip. If I had wanted a vehicle that could do road trips and satisfy my local electric driving, I would have likely opted for a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid, or a Honda Clarity PHEV. Both are larger vehicles that allow me to stretch out on a road trip, either would be more convenient to fuel up on a road trip and either would satisfy my local electric driving. The truth of the matter is I do love to travel, I just don't have much opportunity to travel. So one of my vehicles is a used (I buy only used vehicles) 2002 Class C motorhome. It allows me to really stretch out when I take a road trip, even sleep in the thing. Plus I can tow the Bolt EV behind me and use it for my local driving when I reach my destination. I could not tow the Tesla, The Honda, or the Chrysler, or even my Volt (for various reasons, I'll skip all those explanations). Before you ask, I'll go ahead and say it "Yes the RV uses a ton of gasoline, 6.5 mpg to be exact", but it can be refueled easy and conveniently so it'll have to do until electric RV's become a thing!

So the reasons I prefer the Bolt to the Tesla, as I've already said is the price, and it fits the way I do road trips. But also I like the tall-ish design, which is one thing I hated about my Volt. I have already played around with another electric car. I have owned 3 Mitsubishi i-miev's (still have 2). These cars are fantastic little local errand cars. Yeah they can't go far, but their tall-ish design makes them easy to get in and out of and their short dimensions make them so easy to park. Plus I really like a hatch for utility. The Model S has a hatch (a used one could be had in the mid-50's Ouch), but no hatch on the Model 3 (and good luck finding a used one). Both Teslas sit lower to the ground than the Bolt. I guess an X might work but not price-wise. Another feature is I don't like how the Model 3 controls everything from the center screen. In my opinion this is a recipe for disaster. Has anyone ever had a computer or tablet lock-up on you? Lastly, I believe the Bolt offers the best Regen braking one-pedal driving experience of any electric car. Several on-line (you-tube) reviewers say so, as well as a friend of mine who owns a Model S and wishes his S had the Bolt's regen brakes.

Well I just wanted to share with any readers a different perspective. The Bolt EV is not just a car you can live with until you can get your hands on a Tesla, it has many qualities that make it preferable to owning a Tesla.

 

[SparkE]

{...} So one of my vehicles is a used (I buy only used vehicles) 2002 Class C motorhome. It allows me to really stretch out when I take a road trip, even sleep in the thing. Plus I can tow the Bolt EV behind me and use it for my local driving when I reach my destination. {...}

Just a note on towing the Bolt. There is a thread here about the special things you NEED to do to tow the Bolt without doing great damage to the car.

Just a word to the wise ...

(a search for "towing" should find the thread)

 

[marshallinwa]

I recently purchased a slightly used 2017 Bolt EV Premier (with 11,000 miles on the odometer). I spent more than I really wanted to getting the MSRP listed $43,000 dollar car for $30,750 because someone tried it out before me. Of course I didn't get the $7500 rebate because I'm not the original owner, but I did get the remainder of the factory warranty. Truth be told my income is not such where I'd receive the full rebate anyway. So getting the car for $12,000 (roughly) off-list just for letting someone else drive it first is not bad. I would have preferred to get it in the low to mid $20,000 range but it's a matter of cost vs wait time


So the reasons I prefer the Bolt to the Tesla, as I've already said is the price, and it fits the way I do road trips. But also I like the tall-ish design, which is one thing I hated about my Volt. I have already played around with another electric car. I have owned 3 Mitsubishi i-miev's (still have 2). These cars are fantastic little local errand cars. Yeah they can't go far, but their tall-ish design makes them easy to get in and out of and their short dimensions make them so easy to park. Plus I really like a hatch for utility. The Model S has a hatch (a used one could be had in the mid-50's Ouch), but no hatch on the Model 3 (and good luck finding a used one). Both Teslas sit lower to the ground than the Bolt. I guess an X might work but not price-wise. Another feature is I don't like how the Model 3 controls everything from the center screen. In my opinion this is a recipe for disaster. Has anyone ever had a computer or tablet lock-up on you? Lastly, I believe the Bolt offers the best Regen braking one-pedal driving experience of any electric car. Several on-line (you-tube) reviewers say so, as well as a friend of mine who owns a Model S and wishes his S had the Bolt's regen brakes.

Well I just wanted to share with any readers a different perspective. The Bolt EV is not just a car you can live with until you can get your hands on a Tesla, it has many qualities that make it preferable to owning a Tesla.

With the Trump tariffs on steel, aluminum, China and possible automobiles, maybe you made a great buy. It will be interesting to see when the lease returns show up in a couple of years if the depreciation is as bad as the other EVs that proceeded it or if the tariffs still are in place.

I don't see the center screen as being an issue in the Tesla. If anything, it well probably be very, very reliable. In the teardown video, it's been compared to military grade products. Plus, the ability to improve the car with over-the-air updates is going to make it very popular with their owners.

Price, utility, and the ability to get into and out of the car are reasonable reasons for getting a Bolt over the Tesla model 3. Outside of price and both cars being an EV, the cars aren't really direct competitors, and I find the Tesla hit piece in the link a bit boring!

 

[iwatson]

Just a note on towing the Bolt. There is a thread here about the special things you NEED to do to tow the Bolt without doing great damage to the car.

Just a word to the wise ...

(a search for "towing" should find the thread)

Thank you for the heads-up, SparkE

I should have mentioned that I tow the Bolt on a tow dolly and yes there is one "special thing" that you must remember to do when dolly towing the Bolt. After the vehicle is loaded on the dolly, you must disconnect the 12v negative cable, otherwise the car will engage the parking brake automatically which would lock up the rear tires from rolling freely. If unnoticed this would destroy the rear tires and ultimately catch on fire.

I learned this information from the thread you mentioned, so I was prepared when I drove 450 miles to Texas to purchase my used Bolt and tow it home. Since purchasing the Bolt I've even contributed some information to that thread.

Many vehicles have "special things" you must do when towing them behind a motorhome, so this is not that uncommon. I plan to install a negative cut-off switch to make the process a little easier.

 

[iwatson]

but it's a matter of cost vs wait time

It will be interesting to see when the lease returns show up in a couple of years if the depreciation is as bad as the other EVs that proceeded it!

As you point out that will be in a couple of years. I had to decide if I wanted it now and if the price was acceptable for now, or if I should wait and likely get a better price later.

it well probably be very, very reliable.!

Probably?

 

[marshallinwa]

it well probably be very, very reliable.!

Probably?

I don't have a crystal ball, but the electronics in the Tesla 3 where compared to military grade product. That leaves me optimistic as far as the reliability. I haven't read anything comparing the Bolt electronics to military grade.

It would be interesting to see if the control tablet is still working on the Tesla 3 that rolled over.

Hopefully, the Bolt will give you trouble free operation while you have it.

 

[marshallinwa]

I looked at the Tesla rollover photos and it does look like the tablet screen is on. That's something positive out of a nasty accident.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8yy3jk/my_wife_rolled_our_model_3_at_highway_speeds_she/

 

[iwatson]

I looked at the Tesla rollover photos and it does look like the tablet screen is on. That's something positive out of a nasty accident. /

In describing my preference for the Bolt over the Model 3, I rendered my opinion that I preferred the Bolt because I don't like how the Tesla uses this one screen for all the information to the driver and all controls of all functions. And you've rendered your opinion that it's probably very reliable. Reliability is not just a function of hardware but also software. My Bolt screen has already had an instance of running slow and lagging behind input which I found annoying. But I realize this is a software bug, not an issue with the actual screen. During this episode I could still operate the vehicle, check my speed, use the cruise control, turn on the wipers and lights, adjust the climate control, adjust regen braking, open the glove box and adjust the air vents. Had I owned the model 3 and had a similar issue, all of those functions might have been disabled by a hardware failure, or software bug. Since the 3 is more heavily networked and more functions are within the software which is frequently updated like a computer, there are greater chances that the vehicle could be disabled by a bug that comes through an update or "heaven forbid" even a hack or cyber attack. If reliability could be proven to be a non issue i.e. !00% reliability with no possibility of failure, I would still prefer the layout of the Bolt dash, which places info right in front of the driver, and is more like other vehicles I've driven. I just don't care for the design of the 3. Just my personal preference. For these reasons and because it has a hatch, I'd be more open to a used Model S over a new Model 3. However I still can't justify the $20,000 dollar price premium over my used Bolt and I don't need a car that large which would make it to heavy to tow. Also because Teslas are RWD or AWD I'd have to tow it on a trailer that gets all the car's wheels off the ground.

As I stated in my original post, The Model 3 is an extremely nice vehicle, and if it speaks to you you should choose it over a Bolt. But for the many reasons I cited, the Bolt works for me and it's not merely a placeholder until I can purchase a Tesla.

 

[Evoforce]

By the way... Tesla's are great travel cars! I don't know why you don't think so? Anyway, It sound like the Bolt works out great for you! It is great to have a choice and hopefully we will have many more in the near future.

 

[iwatson]

I have no reason to doubt you or disagree with you. Of all electric cars I think the Tesla would be the most convenient to travel in. Generally they are larger and more comfortable and due to their supercharging network they are the most convenient to recharge while traveling.

I think however you missed my point which is. I believe that most people don’t travel much by car. A working person such as myself, only has an opportunity to travel just a few times per year. The rest of the time My vehicle is used to transport me to work and back which the Bolt is capable of doing. It has plenty of range for other local trips or 1 day excursions, and could even do a regional trip in a pinch. For most people, including myself, who travel infrequently by car I don’t think that there is justification to spend $20,000 more to own a Tesla. Even in a Tesla, travel will be less convenient than in a gasoline powered vehicle. Even though their super chargers charge much faster than a CCS charger is capable of, it’s still not as fast as refueling a gas car, and although Tesla has more locations than any other EV network, it’s still not as many as there are gas stations.

I don’t Subscribe to the widely held belief that to be green must mean you must cut all gasoline out of your usage. For instance I tried an electric lawn mower and found it to be inferior to a gasoline powered mower for my needs.

Again using my example for the $20,000 less I spent on a Bolt versus a Tesla I could use that savings to rent a car for infrequent trips Or I could fly, or I could buy a late model used ICE car, or I could choose to do what I do which is travel by motorhome $20,000 buys a lot of Dino-juice for my vacation-home-on-wheels. And the great thing is when I travel by motorhome I can still tow the Bolt so that I have it with me. Then it can do what it does best, provide local transportation.

Recapping my main point again, when traveling refueling any gasoline powered vehicle is going to be more convenient than the very best electric vehicle. When using a vehicle for its primary function which is local duty, refueling an EV is far more convenient than fueling a gas car.

 

[Evoforce]

Most people want to have a car that can do road trips even if they don't end up doing so. Or the example of many pickup truck drivers don't really need a truck or rarely use it as a hauler but have one anyway.

On another note...If you ever had a Tesla you would understand that most people love to road trip in them.

 

[mrp10000]

I have no reason to doubt you or disagree with you. Of all electric cars I think the Tesla would be the most convenient to travel in. Generally they are larger and more comfortable and due to their supercharging network they are the most convenient to recharge while traveling.

I think however you missed my point which is. I believe that most people don’t travel much by car. A working person such as myself, only has an opportunity to travel just a few times per year. The rest of the time My vehicle is used to transport me to work and back which the Bolt is capable of doing. It has plenty of range for other local trips or 1 day excursions, and could even do a regional trip in a pinch. For most people, including myself, who travel infrequently by car I don’t think that there is justification to spend $20,000 more to own a Tesla. Even in a Tesla, travel will be less convenient than in a gasoline powered vehicle. Even though their super chargers charge much faster than a CCS charger is capable of, it’s still not as fast as refueling a gas car, and although Tesla has more locations than any other EV network, it’s still not as many as there are gas stations.

I don’t Subscribe to the widely held belief that to be green must mean you must cut all gasoline out of your usage. For instance I tried an electric lawn mower and found it to be inferior to a gasoline powered mower for my needs.

Again using my example for the $20,000 less I spent on a Bolt versus a Tesla I could use that savings to rent a car for infrequent trips Or I could fly, or I could buy a late model used ICE car, or I could choose to do what I do which is travel by motorhome $20,000 buys a lot of Dino-juice for my vacation-home-on-wheels. And the great thing is when I travel by motorhome I can still tow the Bolt so that I have it with me. Then it can do what it does best, provide local transportation.

Recapping my main point again, when traveling refueling any gasoline powered vehicle is going to be more convenient than the very best electric vehicle. When using a vehicle for its primary function which is local duty, refueling an EV is far more convenient than fueling a gas car.

In agreement with this...and it comes down to compromises. My family had a LEAF and a Bolt, and made this work for awhile. For six months we had a Corolla as a backup for really long trips, which we used about once or twice per month. We just got the Model 3, and the Corolla is history. The Model 3 will be our long trip car and we can make it work. We finally settled on not paying the taxes and insurance on the Corolla. We know we will have to plan for our longest trips, but that is part of what we signed up for.

 

[iwatson]

Most people want to have a car that can do road trips even if they don't end up doing so. Or the example of many pickup truck drivers don't really need a truck or rarely use it as a hauler but have one anyway.

On another note...If you ever had a Tesla you would understand that most people love to road trip in them.

Maybe if you had a Class C motorhome, you'd understand how wonderful it is to travel in your home. Really I'm not trying to disparage your choice. I think the Tesla vehicles are beautiful cars, and I realize that people prefer them because an occasional road trip is easier to do in a Tesla.

For me, I choose to travel in a different way, so that aspect is covered. The Bolt is more practical and affordable for what I'll be using it for. 49 weeks out of the year it's my ride to work and back. On the other three weeks I can tow it behind my motorhome. Incidentally, I just finished watching a YouTube video where Bjorn Nyland raced a Tesla Model X and a Hyundai Kona EV and they finished within 30 seconds of each other even though the Kona EV can only fast charge about half as fast as the Tesla. This tells me that if I ever want to do a road trip in the Bolt, I could but it might take a little longer than a Tesla. Since that's something I might do so very little the price differential is not justified by a slightly longer fast charging experience.

Funny you should mention the truck. I do haul stuff occasionally, but I also can't justify spending mega $$$$$ for a truck. Instead i bought a trailer for $1100 and repurposed a 20 year old mini-van to tow the trailer. I inherited the mini van from my dad when he passed away.

I'm planning a trip to Washington D.C. at the end of this month, maybe I can post some pictures of that road trip.

Here's some pictures from a road trip I took in 2016. We took our other electric car (pre-Chevy Bolt), a 2012 Mitsubishi i-miev on a 4,988 mile trip to Mount Rushmore-SD, Devils Tower-WY, Yellowstone N.P.-WY, Salt Lake City-UT, Arches N.P.-UT, Monument Valley-UT, Las Vegas-NV, Anaheim-CA, Grand Canyon N.P. and back to Memphis. We fast charged once in Salt Lake City, and once in Las Vegas. For the rest of trip we charged at our RV campsites.

Sorry folks, my pictures were there the first day I posted them, then they disappeared???? I have tried to put them back in but to no avail? I will keeping trying but I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong? If anyone knows please help or PM me. Thanks!

 

[Evoforce]

I have a great need for an electric truck. I currently have a travel trailer and a Jeep that pulls it. Now, an all electric motor home would be great! I just installed a 5000lb capable hitch on my Model S yesterday. Not good enough to tow my 21' travel trailer because I tend to load it heavy. Possibly haul my boat, but definitely haul my utility trailer. It is great that you are hauling your Bolt with you. Bolt is a very capable car and you can charge at campsites. Kudos!

 

[SparkE]

I have a great need for an electric truck.

Ohio-based Workhorse has announced a plug-in hybrid electric pickup truck. up to 80 miles on all-electric mode, 60 kWh battery pack, AND also useful to power tools on location for constructions workers and other hobbyists – with a 7.2 kW power system that allows owners to plug-in anything. When the battery pack is depleted, the gasoline engine kicks in to act as a range extender to feed the two 230-hp/172-kW electric motors, one at each axle, that powers the vehicle. Combined, Workhorse claims a range of 310 miles for the W-15 and a 28/32 mpg city/highway mileage when running only on gasoline.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/09/workhorse-opens-reservation-electric-pickup-truck/

XLHybrids will custom-convert Ford's F- series (150 & 250) pickups to hybrids.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115487_xl-hybrids-adds-ford-f-250-hybrid-to-f-150-plug-in-hybrid-pickups-production-to-start-in-march

 

[iwatson]

Ohio-based Workhorse has announced a plug-in hybrid electric pickup truck. up to 80 miles on all-electric mode, 60 kWh battery pack, AND also useful to power tools on location for constructions workers and other hobbyists – with a 7.2 kW power system that allows owners to plug-in anything. When the battery pack is depleted, the gasoline engine kicks in to act as a range extender to feed the two 230-hp/172-kW electric motors, one at each axle, that powers the vehicle. Combined, Workhorse claims a range of 310 miles for the W-15 and a 28/32 mpg city/highway mileage when running only on gasoline.

Yes, I'm aware of this one and plan to keep my eyes on it. I've never really been a truck guy, but would certainly consider this one if it was available.* If this was an option that I could get, I could do away with several vehicles thus reducing my massive insurance load. I would likely drive this one myself and give the Bolt to my wife. I could get rid of her i-miev (plus I have an extra i-miev I need to get rid of anyway, regardless), and I could get rid of my old mini-van. This truck can haul, tow, be a daily commuter vehicle to work and back, and do road trips too. Even better, this is exactly the type of vehicle that would make a great chassis for a motorhome. 80 miles (or so) of all-electric range and a backup generator for longer distance travel. Ideally a fully charged battery would be able to run the overhead A/C while boondocking. When the battery is depleted the generator would kick on automatically.

* When I say "available", I don't mean like most people think "available". If this thing went on sale tomorrow (which it won't be tomorrow or anytime in the murky future). I would have to wait 1-3 years while it is sold in sufficient quantities new and would have to wait until many are available used so that I can get a good deal on one. This vehicle is in the planning, designing and perhaps even has made it to the testing phase (which I doubt). It was intended to be sold only to fleets because Workhorse is a specialty utility vehicle manufacturer that has been in the fleet vehicle business. They have no network of dealers to sell to the general public, but have opened their reservations up to the general public (Ala Tesla), to test the waters to see if there is consumer demand. Their $52,000 price is just a target and will likely climb when manufacturing reality sets in and if this vehicle is optioned up. If Ford or Chevy ever think this vehicle will really see the light of day, I suspect they will jump into this segment before workhorse can get this puppy off the ground. For Ford and Chevy this is their bread and butter segment and they will not allow their market share to be slaughtered. They both have likely figured out how to build a vehicle like this, but know that it will slice profits from their current line-up. I believe Ford has already announced an electrified F-150. I think GM is likely being quiet about their research on electrified trucks.

 

[Evoforce]

I have a great need for an electric truck.

Ohio-based Workhorse has announced a plug-in hybrid electric pickup truck. up to 80 miles on all-electric mode, 60 kWh battery pack, AND also useful to power tools on location for constructions workers and other hobbyists – with a 7.2 kW power system that allows owners to plug-in anything. When the battery pack is depleted, the gasoline engine kicks in to act as a range extender to feed the two 230-hp/172-kW electric motors, one at each axle, that powers the vehicle. Combined, Workhorse claims a range of 310 miles for the W-15 and a 28/32 mpg city/highway mileage when running only on gasoline.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/09/workhorse-opens-reservation-electric-pickup-truck/

XLHybrids will custom-convert Ford's F- series (150 & 250) pickups to hybrids.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115487_xl-hybrids-adds-ford-f-250-hybrid-to-f-150-plug-in-hybrid-pickups-production-to-start-in-march

Excellent that there is a little happening for trucks. Personally, I want strictly a BEV with big range. The other truck, Bollinger (BEV) was going to use Leaf batteries (bad) but since has changed that spec. I have not heard whom they have chosen for their batteries. That will make all the difference to me and whether they have liquid TMS.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Returning to the OP:

Assuming no changes from Congress:

Tesla is ready to phase out of fed credits, so probably no $35k 3’s will ever get one.

GM is almost there. By the time my current lease ends in late 2020, it’ll probably be off credits too.

But there’s a good chance other OEMs will bring more affordable, long range EVs to market by then, with credits.

Nissan, later this year?
VW, by 2020?
Ford?


I won’t be surprised if we get flooded with Chinese BEVs.

 

[SparkE]

Don't forget about Kia and Hyundai. *IF* they follow through with their announcements, both (well, they are the same company, like Buick and Chevy) will be introducing 200+ mile BEVs at some point over the next 6-18 months (Niro and Kona) - as well as an approx 180-mile Kia Soul.

In 2019, there should be a wide range of 150+ mile BEV options from which to choose.