New Mobility World in Frankfurt

[ChargePoint]

The ChargePoint team is at New Mobility World in Frankfurt, talking about the future of e-mobility and EV charging!

Here's a picture from our booth (#A45)

If you're attending, say hello to our team!

Is anyone following the news coming from the Frankfurt Auto Show (http://bit.ly/2wolbVF)?

 

[SparkE]

And where will the first of these new 'express plus' stations be installed?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

These units are great! Just what we need to make EVs road-trip capable. I do wonder about the business case, though. They are pricey, and there aren't a lot of EVs on the road to use them. It seems like you could never actually recoup the price of installing one of these by selling electricity.

It seems that ChargePoint has figured out how to make a profit for themselves. But really they just shifted the burden to the station owner, and made it even harder with all of ChargePoint's added management fees.

So yeah, the technology is great but the business case looks bleak. In a capitalist society, this is a recipe for failure.

 

[SparkE]

These units are great! Just what we need to make EVs road-trip capable. I do wonder about the business case, though. They are pricey, and there aren't a lot of EVs on the road to use them. It seems like you could never actually recoup the price of installing one of these by selling electricity.

It seems that ChargePoint has figured out how to make a profit for themselves. But really they just shifted the burden to the station owner, and made it even harder with all of ChargePoint's added management fees.

So yeah, the technology is great but the business case looks bleak. In a capitalist society, this is a recipe for failure.

Well, the state of California is paying millions to install (well, offset the cost of; they are paying PART of the install cost) intercity charge spots along many major freeway routes over the next year or so. The beauty of the "express plus" is that it is modular - you install what you "need" today, and can add more stations/units later grafting onto the infrastructure/equipment that is already there. So it makes sense to install units that can pump (say) 150 kW, because in 2 or 3 years there will be cars (besides Teslas) that can charge at that rate. There isn't a lot of info on the unit about this (or maybe I just missed it), but I would *hope* that if one has a station with (say) 4 charge spots, and a max output of (say) 300 kW that if 4 cars are connected that could charge at a max rate of 100kW, that as each vehicle ramped down their charging as the battery filled, that the other cars would get their rate ramped up (if they asked for it).

The Bolt only charges at the max rate until about 50-55% of SoC, then drops down to round 37 kW, and then at around 70-75% SoC drops to a mid/low 20s kW rate.


Also, from Field of Dreams : "Build it and they will come"

 

[GetOffYourGas]

These units are great! Just what we need to make EVs road-trip capable. I do wonder about the business case, though. They are pricey, and there aren't a lot of EVs on the road to use them. It seems like you could never actually recoup the price of installing one of these by selling electricity.

It seems that ChargePoint has figured out how to make a profit for themselves. But really they just shifted the burden to the station owner, and made it even harder with all of ChargePoint's added management fees.

So yeah, the technology is great but the business case looks bleak. In a capitalist society, this is a recipe for failure.

Well, the state of California is paying millions to install (well, offset the cost of; they are paying PART of the install cost) intercity charge spots along many major freeway routes over the next year or so.

That's great for Californians. Meanwhile, New York seems more interested in paying for studies and talking about future infrastructure. California is doing it now.

But that doesn't address my concern at all. This is still a largely capitalist country. If something is not profitable, it will not last. So again, what is the business case? Could these ever actually turn a profit? Or must they always be paid for by the state? What incentive do private businesses have to install them and keep them operational?

Maybe once EVs hit critical mass, things will change but for now it's going to mostly be state funded. Or Tesla who uses their superchargeers to sell more premium priced cars.

 

[SparkE]

The EV market is in state of flux at the moment. Before Dec 2016, there was ONE company selling a 200+ mile range EV, and it cost well over $65K, AND it had it's own private charging network. There are now two new sub-$38K 200+ mile range vehicles (although less than 20K sold so far, world-wide) being offered, and another one (the LEAF2) is around 160m now and more later. (I include the model 3 because free supercharging isn't built in to the base price - so the new stations that can fast-charge teslas will get some Tesla use as well). There are also *announcements* from other vendors (and suspicions that the Ioniq EV will soon have a greatly expanded range, up from 120m).

For the 'installed base' of non-Tesla EVs, most are around 80 mile range. I mention the 80-mile and 200-mile issue because a DCFC for an 80 mile car will probably take 15-25 minutes to fill the battery to 80% or beyond. So places that wish customers to stay longer than (say) 25 minutes aren't going to get much extra business from a 50 kW DCFC - the 'customers' will just sit outside until the charge is done, and leave. For those wishing to be in the business of being "EV stations" (compared to gas stations), well the lower-range EVs generally stay fairly close to home (I am an exception, but more on that later). You have to be a little eco-wacky to take your 80-mile EV on a 260 mile trip. So the tens of 1000s of EVs already out there charge mostly at home or work.

What is the incentive to install something that won't bring in customers, that will often be sitting idle because you have to charge too much to earn back the costs? NOT MUCH. Why would a person pay 2 or 3 times what electricity costs at home if he didn't need to? EVgo is handling it (sort of) by charging monthly fees, getting those who can't easily charge at home to pay that, then boning them on the charge prices when they do use the DCFC. Say, apartment dwellers. They also partnered with a "eco friendly, tree-hugging company" (Whole Foods) to install chargers at many of their locations AND are getting Nissan (and others) to pay them for the "no charge to charge" plan. The customer doesn't pay, so they use it as much as possible, and the car company pays instead. A nice revenue stream. There is also the "company perk" situation at the moment (at least where I live). There are many, many, many companies the the SF Bay region who provide free charging to employees, and a few that offer DCFC spots for free as well.

So, now things are changing. The more 200+ mile EVs are driving around, the more profitable the DCFCs become. For highway travel, the fastest, most reliable, most convenient DCFCs will get the most business from travelers. A car that will be plugged in for an hour (or more) is more interesting for businesses that want to get EV customers in the door. Restaurants and malls (especially those close to freeway access) suddenly see an interest in having a DCFC (or two) on premises. "EV stations" close to freeways are used more, and thus more profitable (especially those in "dead areas" where there aren't any other DCFCs for 50 miles). If your restaurant is the only one with a DCFC for 50 miles, you will probably get most of the EV business around 11:30-2, and 5-8p.m.

So, a year or two from now it *should* be more profitable to have a fast charger - there will be 10s of 1000s (or maybe even 100s of 1000s) more longer-ranged EV on the market, who will be likely to use your service.

Comment 1: a 24 kW DCFC can be highly useful for many businesses in an urban setting TODAY, since a 80-mile EV car might be there for 25-50 minutes. So restaurants and grocery stores and department stores can get the "EV business" if they are one of the few that offer that in the area. The cost for a 24 kW charger is also a lot less. There are Walgreens stores here with 20-ish kW chargers in their lot. Since the lower powered DCFCs wasn't the subject here I didn't bing it up in my initial ramble.

Comment 2: earlier I said "the lower-range EVs generally stay fairly close to home (I am an exception, but more on that later)". Where I live, I have a LARGE number of non-EVgo DCFCs available (well over 20 between SF and my house). Most of them are less than 5 minutes off the freeway. So I don't mind doing a 130-mile round-trip to SF and stopping at a DCFC for 20 minutes to fill up. I do a "well over range" trip at least once a month, and often more than twice. Heck, NASA just installed a a DCFC complex with EIGHT DCFCs, near the junction of two major freeways. I'm spoiled.

 

[ChargePoint]

And where will the first of these new 'express plus' stations be installed?

We haven't released details yet, however, if you're interested in stations in Europe, we've just launched two new sites - the best spot to keep up with any new developments!

ChargePoint Germany: http://bit.ly/chargepointgermany
ChargePoint United Kingdom: http://bit.ly/chargepointUK

Or, if you're based in the USA, you can follow all of our updates here: http://bit.ly/chargepointnews
Plus, here's our most recent update on Chargepoint in Europe: http://bit.ly/2evtdQY

 

[ChargePoint]

There isn't a lot of info on the unit about this (or maybe I just missed it),

Hello SparkE and Getoffyourgass!

We've supplied business case studies in another thread and I see you're discussing those details there, so to keep this thread on topic, I won't re-share that information here.

Regarding information for the ChargePoint Express Plus, you can find more information on the Express Plus, including data sheets and location-specific incentives, on our Express Plus page: http://bit.ly/CPExpressPlus

 

[SparkE]

There isn't a lot of info on the unit about this (or maybe I just missed it), but I would *hope* that if one has a station with (say) 4 charge spots, and a max output of (say) 300 kW that if 4 cars are connected that could charge at a max rate of 100kW, that as each vehicle ramped down their charging as the battery filled, that the other cars would get their rate ramped up (if they asked for it).

The Bolt only charges at the max rate until about 50-55% of SoC, then drops down to round 37 kW, and then at around 70-75% SoC drops to a mid/low 20s kW rate.

Yup, I missed it. The link provided has the followng :

Dynamic Power Sharing: Utility connections can be oversubscribed and power is intelligently allocated among vehicles based on each battery’s state of charge (SoC) and instantaneous maximum charge rate. Every car always charges as fast as possible to minimize driver wait times.

I also missed the examples, :
* Start with conjoined Express Plus Stations.

*Add a cube for more power: eight stations per Power Cube provide up to 187 kW continuous power per port and 125 kW simultaneous power on all eight stations.

*Add another cube for additional power: four stations per Power Cube share 750 kW, providing up to 312 kW continuous power per station and 187 kW simultaneous power on all four stations.

I think the business profitability for "EV stations" along heavily travelled routes with strong EV concentration will increase tremendously once there are 100,000 (or maybe 200,000) (non-Tesla) EVs with 220+ mile range because people will use them. Once (non-Tesla) 340+ mile range EVs become numerous (90+ kWh batteries?) that can charge at 125 kW (or more) these units should sell like hotcakes, and the profitability of running these stations increases. Installing a pair today future-proofs the installation. Hopefully two Express Plus stations aren't 4 times the price of two Express 250 stations...

Edit: I looked more closely at the specs, and the max kW output is at ... 1000 V. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single EV today with a pack voltage much over 400V - so halve those max kW numbers (although the buyer is 'future proofed' if/when cars with 600V or 800V packs show up). A single station has a max output of 400 A, so that is still impressive (160 kW at 400V).

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Edit: I looked more closely at the specs, and the max kW output is at ... 1000 V. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single EV today with a pack voltage much over 400V - so halve those max kW numbers (although the buyer is 'future proofed' if/when cars with 600V or 800V packs show up). A single station has a max output of 400 A, so that is still impressive (160 kW at 400V).

Porsche is experimenting with 800V charging. To my knowledge, they are the only ones so far. It could become far more common in the near future Good on ChargePoint for supporting them!

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/tec...-electromobility-800-volt-charging-12720.html

Porsche is advancing the 800-volt technology, which shows great potential.

 

[oilerlord]

Comment 1: a 24 kW DCFC can be highly useful for many businesses in an urban setting TODAY, since a 80-mile EV car might be there for 25-50 minutes. So restaurants and grocery stores and department stores can get the "EV business" if they are one of the few that offer that in the area.

But not if it costs the Whole foods customer (or the business owner) $12 every 30 minutes. I think the typical WF customer doesn't mind paying twice as much for organic radishes, but won't be plugging into those DCFC stations in front of the store unless they are free. Most businesses won't invest in DCFC unless there is a business case to do so. It's why free L2 is such a win-win.

 

[SparkE]

Comment 1: a 24 kW DCFC can be highly useful for many businesses in an urban setting TODAY, since a 80-mile EV car might be there for 25-50 minutes. So restaurants and grocery stores and department stores can get the "EV business" if they are one of the few that offer that in the area.

But not if it costs the Whole foods customer (or the business owner) $12 every 30 minutes. I think the typical WF customer doesn't mind paying twice as much for organic radishes, but won't be plugging into those DCFC stations in front of the store unless they are free. Most businesses won't invest in DCFC unless there is a business case to do so. It's why free L2 is such a win-win.

Most of the local (SF Bay Area) Whole Foods have EVgo installed (and most of the cars I see charging are getting it with the "free card"). The one WF in the area that I know of with a non-EVgo setup has a "$5 charge" DCFC (60A, however) - you pay $5 for however long you are connected. The station is incredibly buggy however.

 

[SparkE]

There isn't a lot of info on the unit about this (or maybe I just missed it), but I would *hope* that if one has a station with (say) 4 charge spots, and a max output of (say) 300 kW that if 4 cars are connected that could charge at a max rate of 100kW, that as each vehicle ramped down their charging as the battery filled, that the other cars would get their rate ramped up (if they asked for it).

The Bolt only charges at the max rate until about 50-55% of SoC, then drops down to round 37 kW, and then at around 70-75% SoC drops to a mid/low 20s kW rate.

Yup, I missed it. The link provided has the followng :

Dynamic Power Sharing: Utility connections can be oversubscribed and power is intelligently allocated among vehicles based on each battery’s state of charge (SoC) and instantaneous maximum charge rate. Every car always charges as fast as possible to minimize driver wait times.

I also missed the examples, :
* Start with conjoined Express Plus Stations.

*Add a cube for more power: eight stations per Power Cube provide up to 187 kW continuous power per port and 125 kW simultaneous power on all eight stations.

*Add another cube for additional power: four stations per Power Cube share 750 kW, providing up to 312 kW continuous power per station and 187 kW simultaneous power on all four stations.

I think the business profitability for "EV stations" along heavily travelled routes with strong EV concentration will increase tremendously once there are 100,000 (or maybe 200,000) (non-Tesla) EVs with 220+ mile range because people will use them. Once (non-Tesla) 340+ mile range EVs become numerous (90+ kWh batteries?) that can charge at 125 kW (or more) these units should sell like hotcakes, and the profitability of running these stations increases. Installing a pair today future-proofs the installation. Hopefully two Express Plus stations aren't 4 times the price of two Express 250 stations...

Edit: I looked more closely at the specs, and the max kW output is at ... 1000 V. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single EV today with a pack voltage much over 400V - so halve those max kW numbers (although the buyer is 'future proofed' if/when cars with 600V or 800V packs show up). A single station has a max output of 400 A, so that is still impressive (160 kW at 400V).

It's an older article, but this page (article at Electrek) has the best description of these high-debit ChargePoint DCFCs (better than what *I* have found at CP, in fact) :

Chargepoint announces 400 kW charging
https://electrek.co/2017/01/05/chargepoint-400-kw-charing-electric-vehicle-range/

 

[SparkE]

Anxiously awaiting news of any Express Plus installs in the U.S.