How Much I Paid for My Bolt

[bluebolt]

I believe that I can resolve the discussion of recent postings regarding whether CC (capitalized cost) matters more than RV (residual value).

The answer is that everyone is right. This is because the only way to compare two leases is by calculating the TCO (total cost of ownership) across the lifetime of both leases, not by looking at the CC or RV in isolation.

Let's compare imaginary Lease A against imaginary Lease B.

LeftieBiker is correct: if Lease A has a lower CC than Lease B, then Lease A can also have a lower RV, so that the total cost of ownership is the same for both leases.

DucRider is also correct: if Lease A has a higher CC than Lease B, then lease A can also have a higher RV, so that the total cost of ownership is the same for both leases.

If you keep everything else equal, then lowering the CC lowers the TCO.

If you keep everything else equal, then raising the RV lowers the TCO.

But the leasing companies do not keep everything equal. And so if you modify both the CC and RV at the same time, then all bets are off, and your TCO's can go in any direction.

This lack of predictability is true not just for CC and RV, but for all the parameters of a lease. The MSRP, rebates, capitalized cost reduction, doc fee, license fee, disposition fee, acquisition fee, and all the other fees and charges, these are all just mathematical fictions created by the leasing company. If you focus on reducing just one of them, then the leasing company can simply raise another one of them, and the total cost of the lease hasn't changed at all -- or has even increased -- even though it looks like it's gone down.

In other words, although everyone is right in describing the importance of monthly payments or rebates or capitalized cost reduction or residual value, none of these parameters matters in isolation, because it can be easily cancelled out or unbalanced by another parameter.

The only way to tell whether a lease is a good deal -- equivalently, the only way to compare one lease with another lease, apples-to-apples -- is to calculate the total cost of ownership, including all fees.

Since everyone was correct in their earlier postings, I suggest now returning back to the original goal of sharing real-world lease information.

Also, I hope that posters on this group will do their best to provide sufficient information for calculating TCO (total cost of ownership). My own earlier post steps through a way to calculate TCO. This kind of effort is important because only with a TCO is it possible to accurately compare one lease with another.

Edited: per DucRider's input.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The inflated residual is generally agreed to be more than the car is actually worth, so it isn't a "savings" in any rational sense, because GMAC has also pocketed $5k in return for doing it.

You continue to assert that GM is "pocketing" $5k of the tax credit. DucRider, I, and others have given you example numbers which refute this claim. If we are missing something, let's start here.

We have defended our case with reason and numbers. Now it is time for you to do the same. Please give us an example lease scenario in which GM "pockets" the $5k.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

That's pretty easy. For simplicity, I'll use whole numbers, in thousands, any ignore everything but MSRP, CCR, RV, and my cost.

Scenario 1

MSRP. 40
CCR. 7.5
RV. 20
Lease. 12.5

If I return car at lease end, I've paid 12.5 and GM gets 12.5 & 7.5 & whatever they get at auction

If I buy out at end I've paid 32.5 and GM gets 40

Scenario 2

MSRP. 40
CCR. 2.5
RV. 25
Lease. 12.5

If I return, I've paid 12.5 and GM gets 12.5 & 7.5 & whatever they can get at auction, exactly the same as in #1

If I buy out though, I've paid 37.5 and GM gets 12.5 & 7.5 & 25 , so 5 more, but only because I gave it to them.

Are they hoping I won't notice? Or that a Bolt will retain value somehow?
Who knows?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

That's pretty easy. For simplicity, I'll use whole numbers, in thousands, any ignore everything but MSRP, CCR, RV, and my cost.

Thanks, but that's not what I was asking for. Your numbers support my stance, not Leftie's. I want to see the scenario in which GM pockets $5k in a lease/return scenario. Because his claim is that if you buy out the lease, they get the $5k twice.

Are they hoping I won't notice? Or that a Bolt will retain value somehow?
Who knows?

I would guy a little of both, and maybe a third option as well.

There may be some who simply buy out the lease without question. In that case, GM does get to keep $5k of the tax credit.

Looking at the Volt (with which GM did the same thing for leases), it may have contributed to less depreciation on used cars. Or maybe not, I don't claim to know.

The third thing that comes to mind is this gets people into a pattern of leasing. GM would rather you lease a brand new car in 3 years than simply buy out the one you've been renting. It seems that many people in the EV market have fallen into this pattern. Always hopeful that the latest-and-greatest will be much better 3 years down the road (and typically it is, right now).

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Well, I wasn't trying to support Leftie. I have no idea where he gets that two time penalty thing. I just wanted to clearly show that the only way GM gets $5k extra is if you give it to them at buyout, and not if you return it. So, yes, you're correct.

The only way that buyout becomes worth it if is something prevents ICEVs from running, like new laws or a catastrophic event in the fuel supply. If even 2011 Leafs become $25,000 used cars, that extra $5k might make sense.

 

[DucRider]

Let's compare imaginary Lease A against imaginary Lease B.

LeftieBiker is correct: if Lease A has a lower CCR than Lease B, then Lease A can also have a lower RV, so that the total cost of ownership is the same for both leases.

DucRider is also correct: if Lease A has a higher CCR than Lease B, then lease A can also have a higher RV, so that the total cost of ownership is the same for both leases.

You have that backwards in both those scenarios.
A lower CCR requires a higher RV for the depreciation to remain the same.
Conversely, a higher CCR dictates a lower RV.

40K Sell Price
7,500 CCR
32.5K capitalized cost
20K residual
12.5K in depreciation

Lower the CCR by 5K and the RV must go up by that same amount in order for the depreciation to remain the same
40K Sell Price
2,500 CCR
37.5K capitalized cost
25K residual
12.5K in depreciation

 

[oftheseven]

Anyone try to pre-pay for mileage on a lease for less than the .25 cent/mi?
I was told you can't pre-pay mileage on GM leases by one person and the folks at GM financial didn't provide a clear answer.

If i get a 12K mile lease and pre-pay for a couple thousand miles at .20 it would be cheaper than going to a 15K mile lease.

I'm aware of putting money upfront but willing to take the risk if i can lower my overall cost.

 

[bluebolt]

You have that backwards in both those scenarios.

You're right. I edited the post to change "capitalized cost reduction" to "capitalized cost".

 

[EastWestBrothers]

Recent deal during Labor Day weekend

Bolt Premier
Kinetic Blue
DC Fast Charge
Infotainment
Driver Confidence II

MSRP $43,905
36 months/10k miles per year
Drive-off $320 (first month's payment)
$320.90 per month, taxes included for 35 payments

Dealer is also throwing in some accessories due to some mistakes made on their end prepping the car for delivery.

Coming from a 2014 Focus Electric so looking forward to having more than 3x the range.

 

[darekd]

Recent deal during Labor Day weekend

Bolt Premier
Kinetic Blue
DC Fast Charge
Infotainment
Driver Confidence II

MSRP $43,905
36 months/10k miles per year
Drive-off $320 (first month's payment)
$320.90 per month, taxes included for 35 payments

Dealer is also throwing in some accessories due to some mistakes made on their end prepping the car for delivery.

Coming from a 2014 Focus Electric so looking forward to having more than 3x the range.

Where did you get this deal?

 

[EastWestBrothers]

I ran the numbers offline using publicly available money factor and residual information then shopped it around to about half a dozen SoCal dealerships.

Got a couple of responses back but only one dealership had the Kinetic Blue, which was our first choice color, other dealers had Cajun Red, which was the second choice.

There should be no reason why you cannot take the information I have provided and try to shop it around to other dealers in Southern California. I am reluctant to name the dealership at the moment because they still need to deliver several things to me so until they do, I am considering my transaction as not fully completed. Once they deliver the outstanding items, I'll share the dealer name.

 

[sgt1372]

Recent deal during Labor Day weekend

Bolt Premier
Kinetic Blue
DC Fast Charge
Infotainment
Driver Confidence II

MSRP $43,905
36 months/10k miles per year
Drive-off $320 (first month's payment)
$320.90 per month, taxes included for 35 payments

Nothing down? And before receiving the $3k in CA/PGE rebates?

If so, that's a pretty incredible deal! That's about what I'm paying for my LT w/$2k down (after the $3k in rebates)

 

[JerryBob]

http://www.city-chevrolet.com/VehicleDetails/new-2017-Chevrolet-Bolt_EV-5dr_HB_LT-San_Diego-CA/3009111373?cs=102336030

Base model LT with no options

 

[oftheseven]

Just leased our 2nd Bolt (first one was in April):

MSRP: $39,295 - LT with driver confidence, comfort and DC fast charge.
Adjusted cap cost: $29,994 after all discounts, incentives, rebates
Residual: $22,791
$1,000 out of pocket
15K miles, 36 months

$241.27/mo before taxes
$259.97/mo. including taxes

Should get $450 from SCE not expecting the $2500 from CA rebate.

 

[swanlee]

Why on earth is Georgia leasing so high on this car? Everywhere I go here the lease prices are around $550 a month with 2-4K down payments

 

[Anonymous]

Just leased our 2nd Bolt (first one was in April):

MSRP: $39,295 - LT with driver confidence, comfort and DC fast charge.
Adjusted cap cost: $29,994 after all discounts, incentives, rebates
Residual: $22,791
$1,000 out of pocket
15K miles, 36 months

$241.27/mo before taxes
$259.97/mo. including taxes

Should get $450 from SCE not expecting the $2500 from CA rebate.

Where did you get this deal??...and why aren't you expecting the $2500 CA rebate? I know they ran out of $$, but won't you get it once CA puts more money in the pot?

Oh, can you list the incentives and discounts that you were able to get?

Thanks

 

[swanlee]

Does GM actually want to lease this car out to people? Why does the lease pricing vary so much depending on what region you live in?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Does GM actually want to lease this car out to people? Why does the lease pricing vary so much depending on what region you live in?

One guess is CARB credits. GM only gets them in certain states, so a sale (or lease) is more valuable to them there. Effectively, they are passing on that value to the customer.

 

[bluebolt]

Why on earth is Georgia leasing so high on this car? Everywhere I go here the lease prices are around $550 a month with 2-4K down payments

For Georgia, part of the answer may be in this NYTimes article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/11/business/energy-environment/electric-cars-hybrid-tax-credits.html

"When Georgia repealed its generous $5,000 tax credit on electric vehicles in July 2015, and instead slapped a $200 registration fee on electric cars, sales quickly tumbled. In the month before the repeal, nearly 1,300 electric vehicles were sold in the state. By August, those sales had all but evaporated — to just 97 cars. It was a hint of what would come. Today, the economic incentives that have helped electric vehicles gain a toehold in America are under attack, state by state. ... Georgia offers an example of how some of these arguments played out. For a few years, attempts to repeal that state’s electric vehicle incentive, first introduced in the late 1990s, went nowhere. Then in 2015, the repeal was rolled into a larger transportation bill, which promised freshly paved roads and shored-up bridges. The bill passed, together with the repeal, with little debate on the incentive itself. ... Alfred Richner, a financial services worker in Atlanta ... planned to upgrade his Nissan Leaf in 2015. But that plan was foiled when he couldn’t track one down in Georgia before the tax credit expired. 'It’s a great car,' he said. 'I guess by then, everyone wanted it. And then it all stopped.'"

 

[swanlee]

I have a Leaf in Ga and pay the lame 200$ yearly tax against EV's here, I was one of the last to get the State tax credit before Republicans pulled the entire thing and then insulted us by charging us $200 a year for using an EV. They literally said they were pulling the Tax credits cause they didn't want to give free cars to yuppies. I wanted to upgrade to a Bolt but am being priced out by GM.

I still want to know why it is so much here. The EV issues with the state of Ga still do not explain the outrageous lease pricing.

I can Lease any other Gas car in Ga that range from $30k-40k MSRP for between $300-400 a month lease.

The Bolt is not only an expensive Lease option compared to other states that lease the Bolt, it is expensive lease option compared to every other car in it's price range EV or not in Ga.

This is the issue I'm wondering about. I can literally Lease a Jag, Lexus or BMW for the same monthly payments on the Bolt here in Ga.