Hilltop Reserve

[SeanNelson]

I am surprisingly happy with my 20A Clipper Creek LCS-25P that I finally had activated in my garage that was collecting dust since my Volt days! Even when the Bolt EV is down to electrons this unit gets it back to full on mostly an overnight charge! So the 32A unit may be overkill, especially if you have to spend $$$ to put it in.

Thanks - that looks like a nice, super-low profile unit. I've added it to my list of charger options (which I've only now just started!).

 

[ProfessorBolta]

One thing people have to realize is that at any engineering BigCorp, the output product will be the result of a combination of factors at different levels, that don't align as closely as people think. For example, typically there's three main groups involved, high level management, marketing, and the engineering/design teams Each of these groups is optimizing their problem, and only have control over their piece. The mgmt are basically investors, they have capital the invest and get a return on. In this case they decided to invest in their first BEV.

Then it gets handed to the marketing and design/engineering teams. For the Bolt we know there was a design team in Korea, and the engineering team based in Detroit. These three teams got to figure out what the car actually is. Mgmt just comes in later and see what they did, but ultimately they have little say in what gets produced.

The design team created the best design they could given their constraints. Their biggest trouble was the drag coefficient given the chassis size, but by doing some tricks they got it down pretty well.

We don't know much about the engineering team, other than they mostly used 3rd parties (mainly LG and Bosch) and they were largely the high level integrators. They did design the engine, but again had a 3rd party manufacture it.

Why the story? Because what we're seeing is different messages and ideas. Clearly marketing, which I haven't mentioned yet, wanted an 'everyman's car' because that's what Chevy does. So in the documentation they don't say much about the battery, other than to encourage you to plug in during extreme weather so it can condition.

But the engineering team would say something different. Which is, clearly they designed the car for as much range as they could, and real world results are that you can get far more than the EPA range. Second, they would tell you that if you care about longevity, yes keeping it between 30%-70% is ideal. They could tell us a great deal more from their battery test lab, but that's confidential and they're not going to share. But they don't have the magic wand for lithium ion batteries and it's not a secret, all else being equal keeping your battery in the middle of it's range is best for longevity. The Bolt isn't any different.

 

[michaellax]

I am surprisingly happy with my 20A Clipper Creek LCS-25P that I finally had activated in my garage that was collecting dust since my Volt days! Even when the Bolt EV is down to electrons this unit gets it back to full on mostly an overnight charge! So the 32A unit may be overkill, especially if you have to spend $$$ to put it in.

Thanks - that looks like a nice, super-low profile unit. I've added it to my list of charger options (which I've only now just started!).

OK: My point is not so much that specific unit, but that you might save the cost of the electrical upgrade by staying at using 20 A instead of attempting to upgrade to use a 32 A unit.

 

[SeanNelson]

My point is not so much that specific unit, but that you might save the cost of the electrical upgrade by staying at using 20 A instead of attempting to upgrade to use a 32 A unit.

Of course. Which route I go is entirely dependent on how much an upgrade would cost - if it's cheap enough (under an extra $1000 or so) then I'll probably go for it. That's really not much compared to the cost of the car itself, and it's an investment in the future.

 

[michaellax]

Maybe I misunderstood, but can't you already put a 20A unit in now at no additional cost? So my point is why pay anything now for extra amps that give you very little extra utility unless you drive for Uber or some other heavy daily driving use?

My situation was 120v with the Chevy Volt when I was quoted $1,400 to put in 240v to power the Clipper Creek that I had already purchased because, having a 6-30 plug, I was carrying it in the Volt with me with adapters for on the road usage.

So for a leased Volt, of course it made no sense to pay that kind of money to upgrade to 240v and I lived with 120v for the 3 years.

Then I tried to live with 120v for the first 6 months of the Bolt EV, and I just was too frustrated on some occasions. So I had my electrician pencil out the cost of a "temporary" solution: I had him put in a 6 gauge 100' extension cord, from the original service, bolted to the walls of the main building and strung to the separate garage to a proper 6-30 outlet for the Clipper Creek, and he put it in for $550. This cost was eminently doable for me!

Some day I will redo the complete electrical panel on the building, a sub panel in the garage and solar on the roof. But for now, I have my 240v at 30A in the garage; thank you!

 

[SeanNelson]

Maybe I misunderstood, but can't you already put a 20A unit in now at no additional cost? So my point is why pay anything now for extra amps that give you very little extra utility unless you drive for Uber or some other heavy daily driving use?

If the cost difference is small enough I'll go ahead and do it. I'm retired, and there have been occasions when I've gone on fairly long outings on consecutive days, and the higher power charger could well come in handy.

But if the cost is too high then I'll live with the 20A solution. I can always head out to a fast charger for 30 minutes or so to get enough of a "boost" that charging at 20A for the rest of the evening will fill the battery up. Less convenient, but doable for the number of times it's likely to happen.

So I'll ask an electrician. "No harm in asking", as they say.

 

[michaellax]

Yes, that is the issue; long drives on consecutive days! If you have these, then absolutely go for 32A if you can afford it! Don't hassle DCFC when you are SO close to the solution at home.

 

[oilerlord]

[

I'm going to be talking to an electrician about my options and costs. I have a detached garage with a 30A panel, so at the very least I plan to install a 240V/20A EVSE. Depending on the cost of pulling new wiring out to the garage I may upgrade the panel to 60A or so (for future proofing) and go for broke with a 240V/32A EVSE.

I installed a 50A service to the garage, and have a Clipper Creek HCS-40p - 32 amp EVSE. Really happy with it. The HCS-40p (or really, any 32 amp EVSE) is a perfect match for the Bolt's maximum 7.68 kW charging.

With that being said, because you have a big battery; faster charging at home is less important than it is for me. A LCS-30 / 24 amp charger ($499) would be compatible with a 30 amp circuit and allow for 5.76 kW charging. From a fully depleted battery, you'd be fully charged in less than 11 hours. Unless you're looking at getting a Tesla, there's probably no reason to change your panel. Keep in mind that a 20A EVSE likely requires 30A wiring, so if you're looking at using an existing 20A circuit, you'll likely be charging at no more than 16 amps. Unless you do a lot of long road trips, and require (relatively) quick turnaround times on charging...16 amps is probably enough for you too.

 

[michaellax]

I'm going to be talking to an electrician about my options and costs. I have a detached garage with a 30A panel, so at the very least I plan to install a 240V/20A EVSE. Depending on the cost of pulling new wiring out to the garage I may upgrade the panel to 60A or so (for future proofing) and go for broke with a 240V/32A EVSE.

I installed a 50A service to the garage, and have a Clipper Creek HCS-40p - 32 amp EVSE. Really happy with it. The HCS-40p (or really, any 32 amp EVSE) is a perfect match for the Bolt's maximum 7.68 kW charging.

With that being said, because you have a big battery; faster charging at home is less important than it is for me.

For someone that has an 80 mile Compliance Car, that is probably the most nonsensical statement I have heard on this forum! It just makes no mathematical nor practical sense.

I am sorry, but I just don't know what point he is trying to make to you here!

Sean, do you understand it? Because if I am wrong, I would like to be educated about it!

 

[SeanNelson]

With that being said, because you have a big battery; faster charging at home is less important than it is for me.

For someone that has an 80 mile Compliance Car, that is probably the most nonsensical statement I have heard on this forum! It just makes no mathematical nor practical sense. Sean, do you understand it? Because if I am wrong, I would like to be educated about it!

Sure - he's saying that if he wants to make two 50-mile trips in the same day he needs to be able to recharge pretty quickly between trips. In a Bolt, you don't need to recharge between those two trips because the battery holds enough for both.

 

[michaellax]

With that being said, because you have a big battery; faster charging at home is less important than it is for me.

For someone that has an 80 mile Compliance Car, that is probably the most nonsensical statement I have heard on this forum! It just makes no mathematical nor practical sense. Sean, do you understand it? Because if I am wrong, I would like to be educated about it!

Sure - he's saying that if he wants to make two 50-mile trips in the same day he needs to be able to recharge pretty quickly between trips. In a Bolt, you don't need to recharge between those two trips because the battery holds enough for both.

Really?!?

He's got a fleet of ICE's: 2012 VW Jetta Sportwagen, 2008 BMW X3 and 2004 BMW 330Xi Sedan and he's worried about the time saved in the difference between charging at L2 between 32 amps and 20 amps when he needs to make a 2nd 50 mile trip?!?

It is just not a credible argument!

 

[SeanNelson]

For someone that has an 80 mile Compliance Car, that is probably the most nonsensical statement I have heard on this forum! It just makes no mathematical nor practical sense. Sean, do you understand it? Because if I am wrong, I would like to be educated about it!

Sure - he's saying that if he wants to make two 50-mile trips in the same day he needs to be able to recharge pretty quickly between trips. In a Bolt, you don't need to recharge between those two trips because the battery holds enough for both.

He's got a fleet of ICE's: 2012 VW Jetta Sportwagen, 2008 BMW X3 and 2004 BMW 330Xi Sedan and he's worried about the time saved in the difference between charging at L2 between 32 amps and 20 amps when he needs to make a 2nd 50 mile trip?!?

First of all, I think you're making a lot of assumptions about what he would and wouldn't want to do. Having other vehicles to use doesn't mean he doesn't want to use his EV. He wouldn't have bought it if he hadn't wanted to use it. And he's allowed to have different priorities than you think you might have in that situation.

Secondly, his statement was given in the context of advice. And in general terms I think his advice is reasonable, especially for someone who may not have a "fleet" of other cars to draw from.

I know you two have been butting heads. But it feels to me like you're going out of your way to look for an argument on this one...

 

[michaellax]

Exactly, it is because he is giving advice to you, that i point out the absurdity of his position!

You do what is best for your situation.

 

[oilerlord]

First of all, I think you're making a lot of assumptions about what he would and wouldn't want to do. Having other vehicles to use doesn't mean he doesn't want to use his EV. He wouldn't have bought it if he hadn't wanted to use it. And he's allowed to have different priorities than you think you might have in that situation.

Secondly, his statement was given in the context of advice. And in general terms I think his advice is reasonable, especially for someone who may not have a "fleet" of other cars to draw from.

I know you two have been butting heads. But it feels to me like you're going out of your way to look for an argument on this one...

Not that it matters...we have two cars in our garage - the X3 and the B250e. Our remaining "fleet" of cars are parked at our other places. My wife commutes to work with the X3 and the B250e is my daily driver (that I use at least 95% of the time). After hours, and on weekends we both drive the EV - almost exclusively; and why wouldn't we? I don't particularly enjoy spending $60 on gasoline - especially when I can fuel my car for the cost of sunshine.

As you mentioned, I (and many early EV adopters on this board) live within the range restraints of a 90 mile car. Because of that, there are occasions where we need relatively quick turnaround times on charging. My EV has an onboard Tesla charger that supports charging into up to 10kW on L2. For me, that's a big deal but for those with a 60 kWh battery - perhaps not that important. With that said, national averages and what works for "most" is all fine & good until real life gets in the way. There will come a time where you will arrive back from somewhere with a low battery - and need to charge (relatively) quickly to use the car again. Of course, you could spend the $$$ on a DCFC session, but perhaps you don't want to. Everyone's priorities are different, choices are good. Personally, I'd rather charge at home if not only for the convenience.

 

[michaellax]

All of which is massively irrelevant to your choice of an EVSE, Sean; but fascinating reading, nonetheless! :lol:

Not that it matters...

 

[WetEV]

Some might notice some replies missing.

Please be civil.


Mod

 

[BillHowland]

This may be a dumb question and/or answered somewhere else...does anyone know what the total vs usable capacity is for the Bolt's battery pack? Assuming the usable capacity really is 60 kWh, is the total capacity 65 kWh? 70 kWh? Just wondering if anyone knows how much buffer GM engineered into the battery pack.

Would love to know, but I don't think anyone at Chevy's talking.

I measured 59.9 kwh used from my battery with a mile or so to go, so yeah, I'd say its a 60 kwh battery - and then it took 67.77 kwh from the powerline to rechrage itself.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I measured 59.9 kwh used from my battery with a mile or so to go, so yeah, I'd say its a 60 kwh battery - and then it took 67.77 kwh from the powerline to rechrage itself.

That's the usable capacity. He was asking about the actual capacity, including that reserved and not able to be used by the car, to protect the pack from damage. That can't really be measured in the usual way.

 

[oilerlord]

I measured 59.9 kwh used from my battery with a mile or so to go, so yeah, I'd say its a 60 kwh battery - and then it took 67.77 kwh from the powerline to rechrage itself.

I knew there are inefficiencies involved in converting a kWh from the wall into a kWh stored in our EV battery - but didn't realize they can be over 10%. Is this typical?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I measured 59.9 kwh used from my battery with a mile or so to go, so yeah, I'd say its a 60 kwh battery - and then it took 67.77 kwh from the powerline to rechrage itself.

I knew there are inefficiencies involved in converting a kWh from the wall into a kWh stored in our EV battery - but didn't realize they can be over 10%. Is this typical?

10% is pretty good, actually. Typical L2 efficiency is 85-90%. L1 can as low as 75% for 12A, even less at 8A (due to constant loads running over a longer time)