has anyone found success with TOU (time-of-use) rates at home?

[leodoggie]

I plan on getting a big solar on my house to beat the system entirely, as soon as I have the funds for it, since I want Tesla shingles.

My neighbor just installed a solar system in his house for $26k and that did not include the extra capacity necessary to charge an EV.

Way too expensive for me to consider just for my normal electric needs. Neighbor said the solar system only saved him $100/mo and at that rate it eould take over 20 yrs to break even.

I should live so long. LOL!

I got my Bolt in March, with the California ($2500), PG&E ($500)and Sonoma clean power($250) rebates I installed a 2kW solar system myself. The 325 watt panels were $174 each and the Enphase IQ6 Plus inverters were $140 a piece, with all the other component the costs were covered by the rebates. There is also a 30% federal tax credit to come for the solar system.
It is hard to believe that the solar installers are charging so much for residential systems when the components are relatively inexpensive. Also the manufacturers have made the components plug an play.
With my five year old 1.5KW and the new 2KW solar systems they take care of all the house electricity usage and charging the Bolt.
Obviously designing and installating a solar is not for everyone, but if you are willing and able it is really worth it.
Also Sonoma clean power very graciously gave me a Juicebox Pro 40, I only had to pay the sales tax and shipping.
So remember " Fossil fuels dirty and expensive, renewable energy clean and cheap. "

 

[iletric]

... charging your EV between midnight and 6 a.m. every day ... the price for all your household electricity is only 7.16¢ per kWh.

That price is a common misconception; it does not include delivery charges.

The best way to calculate how much you're paying per kWh is to take the whole bill, deduct gas cost, and divide the $ number by kWhs used. Then you'll get your true price per kWh.

 

[SeanNelson]

In the 7 months I have owned the car, I have found countless public chargings stations, most of them FREE! I have charged at home 1 time, and just for 4 hours. In 7 months!

It's great that you have countless, free L2 available to you. Some of us don't have that luxury, and instead rely on L2 charging at home.

I can understand where he's coming from if he doesn't have the opportunity to charge at home. But otherwise he seems to me like he's hogging the public infrastructure that other people rely on. That's exactly why I'm against free chargers - when you offer something of value for free then demand is essentially unlimited - that results in congestion that makes it pretty much useless.

 

[BerkeleyBowlt]

Has anyone found that switching to TOU rate worked in their favor?

I switched to the PG&E Northern California EV-A TOU plan when I got my Bolt in January. I drive about 1,000 miles a month and charge almost exclusively between 1-5 AM on a L2 charger.

According to my PG&E bills, last month my electricity usage was 610 kWh; the same period a year ago it was 342 kWH. That 268 kWH extra seems about average looking through my bills since I got the Bolt.

Last year it cost $87.63, or 25.6 cents per kWH. This year it was $146.92, or 24.1 cents per kWH. (These numbers include delivery and generation charges, taxes, and a 2.6 cent "100% Solar Choice" surcharge I'm voluntarily paying for.)

So I'm saving at least a little per kWH despite using more. But I'm really saving more than it appears, because the EV-A TOU plan is not tiered: I can use all the electricity I want at night without the price per kWH going up. Under the old PG&E standard E-1 rate plan, it's tiered, so the extra 268 kWH would be "tier 2 usage" at 32.5 cents per kWH... so those 268 kWH would have cost me an extra $87.10 on top of the original $87.63.

(And if I exceeded 840 kWH per month, the excess would be 45.9 cents per kWH, although I don't drive enough to reach that point.)

So for me, the TOU rate is saving me about $27.81 a month -- the difference between a bill of $174.73 ($87.63 + $87.10) and $146.92.

But this is Northern California, where they're really pushing TOU, in particular to lower evening demand. It will become the default here in 2019: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/how-rates-work/rate-changes/residential-rate-changes/residential-rate-changes.page

(Man, if only I had a huge battery -- say, 60 kWH -- sitting around my house in the evening that I could somehow use to help PG&E shift demand a few hours in exchange for lower rates! Sure, it would be big, but I could keep it in my driveway on wheels. )

 

[gpsman]

Oilerlord wrote:
"Interesting that in one of your prior posts back in July, you mentioned that you "ONLY" use the included 120v EVSE, and were one of the biggest advocates that most people can easily get by on 120v charging at home. "

I DO NOT charge at home at any level.

I DO charge via 120 VAC at work daily.

I almost never use Level 2.
(3 times ever, I think)

I MOSTLY use Level 1.
I occasionally use Level 3.
I rarely use Level 2.

-John

 

[gpsman]

Not all at all the case.
I charge at places with large banks of chargers, areas that I have NEVER seen every EVSE taken. Blue dot is me. For the uninitiated, orange are level 3, green are level 2. Some level 3 are free. Most level 2 are free.

One location (Facebook with PUBLIC parking lots has 64 Level 2 stations and 12 Level 3 stations. Hats off to Zuckerberg.) Another office park near-by has 24 Free Level 2 chargers, never all taken. A community college near-by has 12 Free Level 2 chargers, powered by solar panels, never all in use. And hey, there, some of my tax money goes to this public school.

I go to some free Level 3 at car dealers.

And when at a Level 3, I never stay longer than necessary to make 1 round-trip if someone pulls in behind me. Someone pulls in behind me about 1 out of 5 trips to the charger.

Lucky to be living in Silicon Valley where there are more public chargers than Starbucks and McDonalds and most of them are empty after 6pm.

I also do MOST of my quick charging late at night.

I drive 45 miles per round trip commute.
I can load up with 50 miles per 12 hour shift I work at work with 120 volts. I work 4 days a week.
I can use free public chargers to make up the difference for weekends and holidays.

My home was built in 1958 and has 2 wires run to every outlet. And a gas dryer. No dryer socket. No 220/240 appliances. I think the whole home is good for 50 amps. I found the 120 VAC EVSE does work with the ground pin run to a water pipe. (Surprises me, but it worked.)

But I only did that one time, just to try it out.

I can understand where he's coming from if he doesn't have the opportunity to charge at home. But otherwise he seems to me like he's hogging the public infrastructure that other people rely on. That's exactly why I'm against free chargers - when you offer something of value for free then demand is essentially unlimited - that results in congestion that makes it pretty much useless.

 

[oilerlord]

I DO NOT charge at home at any level.

I DO charge via 120 VAC at work daily.

Well, ok...but a couple of weeks ago, in another thread you mentioned:

I have 20 amp 120v circuits available.

I'd be happy if I could charge at 16A, or 18A on my 120 volts. The 12 amp setting is getting me by if I don't use A/C or much heat in the car. Those 100 degrees days when I was using A/C I could not quite refill overnight what I used the day before @ 12A 120V.

I few more amps at 120V would be ideal for me.

So, you charge the car overnight at work? The contradictions are confusing. I'm sure I'm missing something, please help me understand. Not that it matters, because it's absolutely your prerogative if, where, and how you choose to charge, I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

I think the latter post illustrates the issue with 120v / 12 amp charging. Sometimes, life gets in the way...100 degree days, or an unexpected trip, and we end up using more kWh then we can replace overnight. We all have our opinions, and I don't doubt there are a lot of people with short commutes, or that don't drive their cars every day that can make the included 120v EVSE work for them on an ongoing basis.

In all honesty, the feeling I get is that the REAL debate isn't about if a home 240v EVSE would come in handy or not - but more about avoiding spending money to install home L2 charging in light of being able to charge on someone else's dime. Again, not that it matters...just reading between the lines.

 

[Tttait]

You have to shop around for Solar, prices and quality vary greatly. Bottom line for me is that while I live in SoCal, my roof is not particuarly good for solar, as such my panels are on 4 different roof sections, with panels facing North, South, East, and West - not optimal.

By finding a great company though and working through the design with them I have eliminated my electric bill, except for $.30 a day to be connected to the grid, eliminated virtually all of my gasoline costs (we own a Bolt and Volt). Without taking the fuel savings into account my Solar system is paying for itself at greater than 18% per year. Just by eliminating the electric bill it will be paid off in less than 6 years.

On top of that I'll give you some numbers in real time, we drive about 35,000 miles per year in our household historically. Divide that by lets say 35 miles per gallon for and ICE car and we are saving an additional $3000 or so per year just on gasoline. I personally choose to take that $3000 and add a few hundred more to it for the savings in maintenance vs ICE and apply that toward paying for the cars, but I could just as easily apply it toward the cost of the Solar and take my current 18% ROI and bump it up to 30%.

Bottom line if you pay $26000 (which is really closer to $18k after rebates) to purchase a solar system and its not paying for itself in less than 10 years you either got severely ripped off or you live in a house surrounded by redwood trees or north of the artic circle. That's just not the way it works. Fake news.

 

[gpsman]

So, you charge the car overnight at work? The contradictions are confusing. I'm sure I'm missing something, please help me understand. Not that it matters, because it's absolutely your prerogative if, where, and how you choose to charge, I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

YES!!!. I work in a 24/7/365 manufacturing facility.

I work 12 hour shifts. Often 7 pm to 7 am.
Sometimes 7 am to 7 pm.

Hence I charge at work "overnight" and I go to public chargers at off-peak times when sometimes I can't get to 120 VAC outlets at work because other vehicles or equipment is blocking the outlets. My employer does not have dedicated charging stalls. They provide no EVSE equipment. They just realize my car uses about $1 a day of power and they don't worry about it. Other fringe benefits also available to all include free coffee, tea, milk, juice, sodas, and donuts.

 

[oilerlord]

You have to shop around for Solar, prices and quality vary greatly. Bottom line for me is that while I live in SoCal, my roof is not particuarly good for solar, as such my panels are on 4 different roof sections, with panels facing North, South, East, and West - not optimal.

By finding a great company though and working through the design with them I have eliminated my electric bill, except for $.30 a day to be connected to the grid, eliminated virtually all of my gasoline costs (we own a Bolt and Volt). Without taking the fuel savings into account my Solar system is paying for itself at greater than 18% per year. Just by eliminating the electric bill it will be paid off in less than 6 years.

On top of that I'll give you some numbers in real time, we drive about 35,000 miles per year in our household historically. Divide that by lets say 35 miles per gallon for and ICE car and we are saving an additional $3000 or so per year just on gasoline. I personally choose to take that $3000 and add a few hundred more to it for the savings in maintenance vs ICE and apply that toward paying for the cars, but I could just as easily apply it toward the cost of the Solar and take my current 18% ROI and bump it up to 30%.

So I understand this correctly, your solar isn't pointed optimally - but regardless, will still pay for itself in about 5 1/2 years. If you have a moment, please run us through your math.

 

[DanDietrich]

I looked into a TOU in NJ and they add a $10 equipment charge to the bill every month for the meter. There goes all of the potential savings. Is there no additional charge elsewhere?

 

[Tttait]

"
So I understand this correctly, your Solar isn't pointed optimally - but regardless, will still pay for itself in about 5 1/2 years. If you have a moment, please run us through your math."

Sorry, have not revisited the thread and missed your question till now.

My system cost me $26000 as a purchase. After the tax credit that nets out to $18,200 cost.

My Electric bill used to be be $320 per month on average, now it is $10 or less for misc. fees etc. thanks to switching to TOU and only charging cars at night.

My system would then pay for itself in just under 59 months, but I did not have cash on hand to do the purchase, so I used a HELOC loan to pay for it adding nearly $2000 in interest to the cost above. The interest adds another 6 months to pay off, taking my total time to completely pay for the system to 65 months.

If all my panels faced south, it would be faster. It looks like you are in Canada, so the payoff may be slower.

 

[Pigwich]

It varies widely. I get my power from the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. They don't give enough advantage to the TOU rates to make up for the risk of big air conditioning bills. Furthermore, they don't respond to requests for change from tiers to TOU, so I gave up on the whole thing.

By contrast, other nearby areas with private power companies (such as Edison) seem to have very large incentives to charge late at night.

So don't assume TOU is necessarily a great thing, might be or might not in your area.

SO LADWP is not so great in getting a TOU meter? I was considdering switching over. It seems to me, that at least in the winter, that I'm going to save a *little* bit of money. I've been running an experiment, but it's breaking down such that I'm averaging $4.90 a day on the tiered system, vs $4.21 on the TOU system. Problem is, I've only been running the data since a little before Christmas. My wife and I both drive EVs, but I do a lot of charging at work.

If anybody wants to see what a whole boring average typical LA house's electrical usage is, this is it, in real time.

TOU:
https://emoncms.org/app/view?name=LADWP%20TOU%20R-1B&readkey=2005a0a74f88a0ae04c41ca6b28fc9a2

and straight per KWH (in tier 2)
https://emoncms.org/app/view?name=LADWP%20Tier%202%20Average&readkey=2005a0a74f88a0ae04c41ca6b28fc9a2


The big thing is...as you say, the AIR CONDITIONER. Supposedly LADWP's peak ends at 5 PM and mid peak goes until 8 PM, but between 5 and 8 is when the AC needs to crank the hardest, and we're gonna pay big time in the summer, or at least I THINK... I think I'm going to let the data recorder run during the hot weather to see how bad things. My gut is that if I'm saving 69 cents a day in the winter, which is more or less a wash, then summer is going to kill me.

OF COURSE, if LADWP is totally unresponsive, then the decision has been made for me.

 

[sgt1372]

My system cost me $26000 as a purchase. After the tax credit that nets out to $18,200 cost.

My Electric bill used to be be $320 per month on average, now it is $10 or less for misc. fees etc. thanks to switching to TOU and only charging cars at night.

My system would then pay for itself in just under 59 months, but I did not have cash on hand to do the purchase, so I used a HELOC loan to pay for it adding nearly $2000 in interest to the cost above. The interest adds another 6 months to pay off, taking my total time to completely pay for the system to 65 months.

This is comparable to what my neighbor said he paid for his system.

I used PGE's online calculator to try to figure out whether I'd save anything switching to TOU. I would but only a minor amount. So, I decided not to bother, especially since I am driving the Bolt so little and because I just started using FREE public charging locations near me to avoid the cost altogether.

Just charged up my Bolt for 5 hours (about 125 miles range) a couple of days ago (mid day on a Sat) but that may be the last time I do so.