From a Leaf to a Bolt: Early Returns

[michael]

The lock is actually a very bad thing. It prevents plugsharing at, for example workplace charging. Even when you are done, the next guy can't take over the "hose".

If you are actually using the trickle charger, there are other ways to prevent its theft.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The lock is actually a very bad thing. It prevents plugsharing at, for example workplace charging. Even when you are done, the next guy can't take over the "hose".

If you are actually using the trickle charger, there are other ways to prevent its theft.

The 2013+ Leaf has an "Auto" setting in which it unlocks the J-1772 plug when the charge is completed.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Interesting take. Those seem like pretty minor grievances and I'm glad to hear you are "super happy" with your Bolt!

Nissan is taking the low (cost) road with the evolution of the Leaf. Even the 2018 only has a 40kWh battery. Chevy put such a large (and therefore expensive) battery in the Bolt, that I'm not surprised they cut corners elsewhere.

I'm not personally interested in the 2018 Leaf, although I hope Nissan does well with it. I'm much more interested in the 2019 Leaf (reported to be getting a Bolt-comparable 60kWh battery). That comparison will be interesting. I wonder what Nissan will have to sacrifice to get a 60kWh battery in the Leaf. And how that car will compare next to a 2019 Bolt.

 

[SeanNelson]

I wonder what Nissan will have to sacrifice to get a 60kWh battery in the Leaf. And how that car will compare next to a 2019 Bolt.

Given that the larger battery will be optional and the 40KWh version will still be sold, they probably won't be able to sacrifice anything. Nobody will want to pay more for the upscale model and not get everything that's in the cheaper car. So I expect that price markup will have to cover the cost of the larger battery. The question would be whether the difference in list price will reflect just the manufacturing cost differential or whether it will include the usual markups.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I wonder what Nissan will have to sacrifice to get a 60kWh battery in the Leaf. And how that car will compare next to a 2019 Bolt.

Given that the larger battery will be optional and the 40KWh version will still be sold, they probably won't be able to sacrifice anything. Nobody will want to pay more for the upscale model and not get everything that's in the cheaper car. So I expect that price markup will have to cover the cost of the larger battery. The question would be whether the difference in list price will reflect just the manufacturing cost differential or whether it will include the usual markups.

If Nissan ends up at the same price point as the Bolt, then I consider that a sacrifice. They are sacrificing their price advantage. Although for the consumer it would end up being the trade-off of a fun-to-drive car with tight suspension and seats versus a boring-but-comfortable family hauler. There's room for both, IMO.

 

[boltage]

Regarding locking the EVSE during charging, the included EVSE allows a small padlock to be put on it to prevent it from being removed from the car when plugged in. See page 245 of the owner's manual at https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2017/Chevrolet/BOLT%20EV/Owner%27s%20Manual.pdf .

 

[SeanNelson]

If Nissan ends up at the same price point as the Bolt, then I consider that a sacrifice. They are sacrificing their price advantage. Although for the consumer it would end up being the trade-off of a fun-to-drive car with tight suspension and seats versus a boring-but-comfortable family hauler. There's room for both, IMO.

Yes, there is. And the Nissan has its own advantages such as it's pro-pilot capabilities, which will be a strong motivator for the people disappointed in the Bolt's lack of adaptive cruise control. A lot of people also seem to think that the Leaf, at least the current one, has a nicer interior as well.

So it's a different set of trade-offs and if a 60kWh Leaf comes out at the same price as the Bolt then the market will decide just how much of a "sacrifice" NIssan has made. As long as they continue to produce the 40kWh model to address the most cost-conscious sector of the market I don't think the upscale model would be any real sacrifice at all.

 

[GernBlanston]

Interesting complaints. The charge cord is stout enough for the load it carries,
and the charging door works. I suspect they engineered the cord and door to work
well and be lightweight, not to be heavy and pleasing to the touch.
Plastic interior is just OK, and I wouldn't object to a charge port light.

 

[oilerlord]

Interesting complaints. The charge cord is stout enough for the load it carries,
and the charging door works. I suspect they engineered the cord and door to work
well and be lightweight, not to be heavy and pleasing to the touch.
Plastic interior is just OK, and I wouldn't object to a charge port light.

There's a fine line between "lightness" and "cheap". Methinks GM added less of the former, and more of the latter into the car. The plastic interior, including the seats really are just OK. I haven't seen the new Leaf in person, but from photos and video reviews, the Nissan's interior looks like a Bentley compared to the Bolt's.

 

[DucRider]

There's a fine line between "lightness" and "cheap". Methinks GM added less of the former, and more of the latter into the car. The plastic interior, including the seats really are just OK. I haven't seen the new Leaf in person, but from photos and video reviews, the Nissan's interior looks like a Bentley compared to the Bolt's.

If you liked the interior on previous model years, you'll like the '18 interior as well. If you don't care about thermal battery management, you'll also be satisfied as nothing has changed on that front. Chevy and Nissan have chosen different ways to keep the cost down.

A LEAF S with heated seats and Quick Charge is ~$33K, an SV slightly more @ ~$34K (probably a better match to a Bolt LT). Some will think the SV worth it as the heat pump system is included with the heated seat package on the SV, but not available at all on the S.

8 way power seats with lumbar add $2,200 to the SV (not an option on the S). Comes in the tech package with Homelink and some other goodies.

A fully optioned SL nudges above $38K.

Value vs Bolt will depend on individual needs and preferences. If range is king, Bolt has 50% more. If cushy seats and ride, and a car a bit softer all around are your thing, the nod will go to the LEAF..
Summary sheets we use at shows. EPA ratings on the LEAF came after our press deadline, but they are 151 miles with 166 city, 133 hwy, 112 MPGe:
http://www.oeva.org/resources/specsheets/OEVA WebSpec Chevy Bolt.pdf
http://www.oeva.org/resources/specsheets/OEVA WebSpec Nissan LEAF.pdf

Pretty much everything available in Oregon is covered:
http://www.oeva.org/resources/specsheets/

 

[oilerlord]

Thanks, Gary. For those that live in northern climates (like me), where it's either cool or cold 5-months out of the year; I think thermal management isn't as important. A range upgrade from 87 to 150 miles, with the addition of fast charging would be all I'd ever need. A heat pump is a big deal too.

You're right that manufacturers make different sacrifices in the effort to keep EV's affordable. Big range is all fine & dandy but the rest of the car matters more to me. I think Nissan made reasonable choices but to each their own. Either way, choice is good.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Keep in mind that the 2016-2017 Leafs have terrible degradation issues in warmer climates. If you have Hot summers, I'd think twice about a Leaf. If the Summers are cool too, then hopefully no problem. The 2018 Leafs have been delayed, though, and aren't in more than a few showrooms yet.

 

[DucRider]

I still get surprised by what some find imprtant, and what they don't care as much about when selecting a vehicle (or many things, actually).

The OEVA had a Showcase at the Portland Auto Show last week where we were there to talk about EV's. We explain the pro's and cons, and had ~ 14 different BEV's and PHEV's on display.

Had a fun discussion with a very nice lady looking to make the move to something with a plug. Probably environmental/efficiency reasons, but the specific reasons never came up - it was decision she'd already made. She was looking for her 3rd car - not in her "stable", but third car in her life! 1st one she had for 21 years. Her current car for 28 years (1990 Subaru). 100% electric would be a stretch and too far out of her comfort zone for the uses she described. Could she have made it work? Of course. People make it work without a car at all.

Big "must have" was hatchback with room for stuff - no sedans. She lamented the complicated cabin layout, buttons, knobs and screens (a "feature" of almost all new vehicles with dubious "benefit" to some). She also liked the boxy style and room it provided in her old car. Four or AWD would be a plus. She wanted ground clearance. She actually had what looked to be a multi-page spreadsheet she was filling in to compare.

Narrowed the PHEV list to 3 she was interested in: Kia Niro, Audi A3 e-Tron, and the Outlander PHEV. Outlander seemed to be the closest fit. We didn't have all the specs/options/pricing info she wanted on all the vehicles, so she went off to the manufacturers displays to continue gathering info.

Saw her back in the showcase a while later. Turned out she had eliminated the Outlander for a reason I had never heard. Was not available without window tinting. Something that she would not compromise on even if the rest of the vehicle just what she was looking for.

So she was down to the A3 and the Niro. Two very, very different vehicles that I normally wouldn't consider to be compared and cross shopped. If the Audi had more than 16 miles AER, it would have been the hands down winner. Turns out price was not a major barrier in either.

Gave her my card and hope to hear from her what she winds up with. She (of course) wanted to test drive them both. Was dreading the dealership experience more than a little - it had been nearly 3 decades since her last go-round. I did mention that services like Costco Auto might be an option to remove the negotiation anxiety.

Long story for a short lesson - the "best" car for you is unlikely to be the "best" car for many (or most) other people. Take a random group of 10 people, and I doubt any 2 would settle on the same vehicle as ideal - or even the best set of compromises (price, looks, comfort, utility, etc).

Happy EV shopping!

P.S. Anyone interested in our display can take a virtual tour here:
https://my.matterport.com/show/?m=hfdSSqPC4KW&hl=1
Still adding some tags to different things like the ICE and Electric motor comparison display

 

[SeanNelson]

I still get surprised by what some find imprtant, and what they don't care as much about when selecting a vehicle (or many things, actually).

Yeah, it's bizarre that some crazy people don't want all the things that are, to me, so obviously necessary...

Great post!

 

[gpsman]

I absolutely won’t buy a car without a cassette player. Took my dealer 2 and a half months to figure out how to get one in the Bolt. I need the cassette player so I can use my handy cassette adapter to plug in my Discman. Just kidding. :mrgreen:

I have used my entire 60 kWh battery full to empty on 3 long round-trips (450 miles) in 1 year of ownership. I could “get by” with a 15 kWh car most of the time.

However, with a 60 kWh car, I have the luxury of charging every 3rd or 4th day if I choose. I also have to park outside 24/7. If it’s raining out, I have the freedom to choose to not charge that day. Why bother. I also live in an older home with old wiring.
So I don’t charge at home. The 60 kWh car allows me the freedom to opportunity charge whenever I can, and not worry about not being able to charge at home. (In a pinch I could/would trickle charge at 8 amps at home.)

Those reasons make the Bolt a perfect car for me. Plus I love how quick and nimble it is. It is fun to drive even though it’s not really pretty on the outside. But, did you ever notice how little of the outside you can see while you are in the inside? Personally, I spend very little time looking at the outside of my car. I spend hours a day looking at the inside.

 

[oilerlord]

I still get surprised by what some find imprtant, and what they don't care as much about when selecting a vehicle (or many things, actually).

So she was down to the A3 and the Niro. Two very, very different vehicles that I normally wouldn't consider to be compared and cross shopped. If the Audi had more than 16 miles AER, it would have been the hands down winner. Turns out price was not a major barrier in either.

Gave her my card and hope to hear from her what she winds up with. She (of course) wanted to test drive them both. Was dreading the dealership experience more than a little - it had been nearly 3 decades since her last go-round. I did mention that services like Costco Auto might be an option to remove the negotiation anxiety.

Long story for a short lesson - the "best" car for you is unlikely to be the "best" car for many (or most) other people. Take a random group of 10 people, and I doubt any 2 would settle on the same vehicle as ideal - or even the best set of compromises (price, looks, comfort, utility, etc).

Sometimes, people are just random.

A couple years back, I tried to help a friend of the family find a new car. It was like herding cats. Despite my best efforts, I wasn't able to help her narrow her choices down to a few cars, let alone the number of categories of cars. I spent hours searching and researching cars based on her feedback only to see her go on a tangent on another completely unrelated vehicle in a different segment, at a completely different price point. Out of the blue, she ended up buying one of the first cars we looked at that she initially hated. No doubt if something goes sideways with that car, it's going to be my fault. Total waste of time.

 

[SeanNelson]

I tried to help a friend of the family find a new car. It was like herding cats.

I consider myself a rational person who looks at things carefully and analyzes a major buying decision. I will never truly understand people who make these decisions emotionally. I can only acknowledge that some people do, and that they have their own set of reasons which are just as valid to them as my reasons are to me. In the end, it's what makes you happy that really matters.

 

[JoeS]

I consider myself a rational person who looks at things carefully and analyzes a major buying decision. I will never truly understand people who make these decisions emotionally....

Sean, I'm in your camp, and I will add that, with a few exceptions, I buy used and happily let someone else take the initial depreciation hit. Perhaps 'emotional buying' explains why there are so many perfectly good used cars available on the market? Also, I tend to keep my cars for a very long time (although they have now almost all been replaced by BEVs).

 

[SparkE]

I consider myself a rational person who looks at things carefully and analyzes a major buying decision. I will never truly understand people who make these decisions emotionally....

Sean, I'm in your camp, and I will add that, with a few exceptions, I buy used and happily let someone else take the initial depreciation hit. Perhaps 'emotional buying' explains why there are so many perfectly good used cars available on the market? Also, I tend to keep my cars for a very long time (although they have now almost all been replaced by BEVs).

My "newest" (ICE) vehicle is 12 years old, the oldest is 22 years old - so I can relate. (My EV is just a baby!) I plan on only buying EVs from here on out, as cars wear out over time (although I love telling people that my next ICE vehicle will be an EV).

 

[paulgipe]

Had a fun discussion with a very nice lady looking to make the move to something with a plug. Probably environmental/efficiency reasons, but the specific reasons never came up - it was decision she'd already made. She was looking for her 3rd car - not in her "stable", but third car in her life! 1st one she had for 21 years. Her current car for 28 years (1990 Subaru). 100% electric would be a stretch and too far out of her comfort zone for the uses she described. Could she have made it work? Of course. People make it work without a car at all.

Gary,

I've been trying to help her too. I probably talked her out of the Highlander. In our last conversation I said in exasperation that she would end up with the same kind of car she was driving, a Subaru without a plug. She countered that she'd wait until it had a plug. People who haven't worked in technology, business, or industry just don't understand that you just can't get everything you want in a mass-produced vehicle. If you do, it's not mass-produced, it's custom. In the best of all possible worlds, we'd drive our Bolt up there to Portland and let her drive it up and down her potholed street. If you had day rentals or week rentals that might sway someone like her. Even so, it's taken me a couple of months to grow into the Bolt after a Leaf. It was a rocky relationship at first.

Paul