Consumer Report Bolt out distances Tesla

[ArthurL]

https://www.consumerreports.org/2017-chevrolet-bolt/chevrolet-bolt-sets-electric-vehicle-range-record/

Consumer Reports says Bolt is EV distance ... 250 miles. From my experience even that is a little on the low side.

 

[SeanNelson]

GM under-promised and over-delivered. Tesla did the opposite. Guess which strategy I like better?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The Bolt's achilles heel is still charging. Single-charge range is great. Once you get above ~150 miles, though, you are mostly talking about long trips. You can assume that one would need to charge along the way. Where can you charge a Bolt? Not nearly as conveniently as a Tesla. And when you do charge the Bolt, it maxes out at 60kW, versus over 100kW for the Tesla.

 

[Dgodfrey]

GM under-promised and over-delivered. Tesla did the opposite. Guess which strategy I like better?

Could you be more specific? Are you referencing the Model 3? Musk promised a 215 mile EV, check, well appointed for $35k, check, available by end of 2017, check.

 

[ArthurL]

Remove check mark please. $35k version of Model 3 will not be available until mid 2018. Only the $44k "base" model which will run $60k with bells and whistles. The $35k is a "base" model as well. Are you on the waiting list? No? Maybe in 2 years or sooner it will be available to you...if this weeks 60,000 cancellations continue even sooner.

And if those 60,000 cancellations reallllly wanted an electric car.....which one will they now buy? The reason they cancelled according to Elon was the wait period. By the end of 2018 if federal incentives are not extended those on the back end of the line will only have state incentives available.

No doubt it's a sweet car, but over promised with unstated exceptions to those promises.

 

[elpwr]

The consumer report results track closely with my own findings. In the last 20,000 miles of mixed driving my Tesla Model S85 has averaged about 8% under rated range. My Bolt is only about six weeks old and has 1800 miles on it but it has consistently exceeded the rated range on each charge under the same driving conditions.

Bolt will burn thru energy pretty fast at speeds above 70 mph. But when operated reasonably it has amazingly good range - about equivalent to the 85 kWh Tesla, which was the largest available battery when I bought mine. Bolt is no Tesla Model S, but at less than half the price and nearly equal range, it's value proposition is undeniable.

 

[ArthurL]

Me. 4000+ km. Mid range on recharge has been between 425 km and 538 km. Highest actual mileage 482 on 57.3 kWh. Still glad we don't do any long range winter driving. Grin

 

[SeanNelson]

GM under-promised and over-delivered. Tesla did the opposite. Guess which strategy I like better?

Could you be more specific? Are you referencing the Model 3? Musk promised a 215 mile EV, check, well appointed for $35k, check, available by end of 2017, check.

Well I'm specifically referring to the Model S75D, since that's what Consumer Reports tested. While CR's tests didn't follow the specific EPA range test protocol, it's still significant to me that the Bolt exceeded it's claimed EPA range while the Tesla failed to reach it. In my mind that casts some doubt on Tesla's range claims, and one has to wonder if the base Model 3's claimed 220 mile range might fall prey to the same issue.

 

[sgt1372]

250 miles, really?

I only average about 200 miles. My own fault because I drive w/a lead foot. Recent hot weather has also substantially increased AC use and reduced mileage.

Oh well . . .

 

[alevek]

The Bolt's achilles heel is still charging. Single-charge range is great. Once you get above ~150 miles, though, you are mostly talking about long trips. You can assume that one would need to charge along the way. Where can you charge a Bolt? Not nearly as conveniently as a Tesla. And when you do charge the Bolt, it maxes out at 60kW, versus over 100kW for the Tesla.

The lack of a charging network is way overstated. It's only a factor for the 1% of people that think driving a long distance in a car is a fun thing to do. In 3 years with a Model S I've never used a Supercharger.

 

[Dgodfrey]

Remove check mark please. $35k version of Model 3 will not be available until mid 2018. Only the $44k "base" model which will run $60k with bells and whistles. The $35k is a "base" model as well. Are you on the waiting list? No? Maybe in 2 years or sooner it will be available to you...if this weeks 60,000 cancellations continue even sooner.

And if those 60,000 cancellations reallllly wanted an electric car.....which one will they now buy? The reason they cancelled according to Elon was the wait period. By the end of 2018 if federal incentives are not extended those on the back end of the line will only have state incentives available.

No doubt it's a sweet car, but over promised with unstated exceptions to those promises.

For the first in line for the Model 3 on the west coast and existing owners, they will be allowed to configure the $35k model 3 for December delivery. I am east coast, not owner, reserved before reveal on line and have available delivery March-May 2018 for standard battery. I also reserved one on July 24th and it shows delivery between May-July 2018.
Here's a sample from the Tesla forum
"
avanti5010 | July 29, 2017
I have: Oct-Dec, LONG RANGE; Dec-Feb, Standard Battery (Cheapo). I ordered 3/31/16, live in CA. I lost some spots because I sold my Model S a couple of months ago."
Leaving check mark as is.

 

[Dgodfrey]

GM under-promised and over-delivered. Tesla did the opposite. Guess which strategy I like better?

Could you be more specific? Are you referencing the Model 3? Musk promised a 215 mile EV, check, well appointed for $35k, check, available by end of 2017, check.

Well I'm specifically referring to the Model S75D, since that's what Consumer Reports tested. While CR's tests didn't follow the specific EPA range test protocol, it's still significant to me that the Bolt exceeded it's claimed EPA range while the Tesla failed to reach it. In my mind that casts some doubt on Tesla's range claims, and one has to wonder if the base Model 3's claimed 220 mile range might fall prey to the same issue.

You make a valid point and it does remain to be seen if the Model 3 can deliver the range promised. Without knowing the size of the battery, we can only speculate.
I am very surprised and impressed though with how well the Bolt performed especially given these were highway speeds.

 

[SparkE]

The Bolt's achilles heel is still charging. Single-charge range is great. Once you get above ~150 miles, though, you are mostly talking about long trips. You can assume that one would need to charge along the way. Where can you charge a Bolt? Not nearly as conveniently as a Tesla. And when you do charge the Bolt, it maxes out at 60kW, versus over 100kW for the Tesla.

The lack of a charging network is way overstated. It's only a factor for the 1% of people that think driving a long distance in a car is a fun thing to do. In 3 years with a Model S I've never used a Supercharger.

I actually don't think it is overblown or overstated. It's a real pain in the behind to drive a non-Tesla EV a 'long distance'. (I actually think it's sort of a pain to drive a Tesla long distance - just less so than any other EV.) And by long distance, I mean a drive of 240 miles - which isn't really that long (4 hours or so). I drove down to Ventura, CA a few months ago (from San Jose, CA). I sure wasn't going to fly down! I left my EV at home because I didn't want to deal with charging issues (although my wife found it amusing that got off the freeway to scope out some DCFC charge locations during the drive down US-101). Besides the stop at SLO for lunch (we were parked for about 20 mins), we just drove. I didn't have to stop for gas (or electricity).

Because of the crappy CCS DCFC infrastructure *for travelers* (along major freeway routes), any trip that requires a DCFC charge is still a pain in an EV. Not impossible, hopefully not a hardship, but definitely more of a pain than driving a gasmobile. Some people are willing to put up with it, I am not one of them. And *today* I probably wouldn't drive a Bolt on any drive that required more than one DCFC charge - I would spend too much time dealing with electricity, and too much downtime, and too much worry about whether the DCFC I wanted to use was in use, or broken. *IF* I had needed to buy gas on the trip, it would have been : get off freeway, drive into station, put charge card in pump, nozzle in car, start fueling, go pee (if needed), maybe buy a sandwich, definitely clean windshield, look at all 4 tires, remove nozzle, drive away. Max 10 minutes (probably closer to 4), and I have another 400+ miles of range. I've stretched my legs, possibly gotten something to eat or drink, taken care of bodily functions, and the car refueled and I'm off. So many of the DCFC stations are NOT convenient or anywhere near freeway exits.

It's only a factor for the 1% of people that think driving a long distance in a car is a fun thing to do.

I'd say it's only a factor for people who have to drive a long distance. EV acceptance as "just another car" isn't going to happen until it is easily and 'fairly' quickly refueled during that 300-400 mile drive. I don't mind a *little* extra time, but having to hunt and plan (and have 2nd and 3rd backups) and then WAIT and WAIT is just is too much for me. For *me* (what would probably convince me to just use an EV for long distance, no thought entailed) is when DCFC stations are multi-'pump' (4- or 6- or more bays), are convenient to freeway exits and 'amenities', are 50-80 miles apart MAX along the major freeway corridors, they can pump out 400 amps (160 kW) and the car will suck it up at 400 amps. I wouldn't mind driving an EV for a not-so-long trip (<600 miles) if I could get about 150 miles range in 15 minutes. I'd put up with the extra fueling time, since I would be peeing, or drinking or walking for a lot of that time and not standing there looking at the car or at my phone app to see if a charge needed to be restarted, or figuring out how long I have to wait.

Besides, a gas engine on the freeway is about its best usage scenario - it is in a prime (efficient) operating range and using all of its energy to push you through the air, at the highest efficiency (compared to stop-and-go, and using mpg as the comparator). I was shocked when I filled up in Ventura (just after checking in to the hotel) : 42 mpg. I have *never* gotten mileage that high - its actually 4 mpg over the EPA estimate. (I had set the cruse control to 58 mph, and stayed in the truck lane most of the way down).

Frankly, I don't think that there is a single EV on the market today that is a good choice as a long-distance vehicle (vehicle of any type) - even a Tesla. Teslas are the best EV for long distance driving (in terms of refueling piece-of-mind and speed and opportunities for fueling) but if I had to drive up I-5 to Coos Bay, OR tomorrow I'd take my gas-mobile over a Tesla. (I pulled Coos Bay out of the air as it is mostly up I-5 and about 600 miles away. Easily drivable in a day. If you aren't driving an EV.) I could fuel at hundreds if not thousands of locations, stop where and when I wanted, and not have to really plan the trip at all.

Anyhow, lots of ramble. I think that the DCFC charging infrastructure needs to be a lot better than what it is today, and even better than what Tesla has. Similar in terms of multi-bay, but pump electrons even faster (120 kW will probably cut it, but 160 kW or more would be even better).

 

[user 744]

I think that you just made the case for a PHEV. My CMax has only 25mi in the battery (yes, I'd like more, but me and my 6'4" son don't fit in a Volt), but 600mi in the gas tank.

I'm the guy who doesn't use any gas during the week, only on the longer weekend trips.

I *am* thinking about a Bolt next time though. By the time my CMax dies, there will be Bolts coming off lease!

 

[SparkE]

I think that you just made the case for a PHEV. My CMax has only 25mi in the battery (yes, I'd like more, but me and my 6'4" son don't fit in a Volt), but 600mi in the gas tank.

I'm the guy who doesn't use any gas during the week, only on the longer weekend trips.

I *am* thinking about a Bolt next time though. By the time my CMax dies, there will be Bolts coming off lease!

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've posted on this forum that my next 'ICE' vehicle is going to be a PHEV, to go along with my BEV. I'd prefer one with at least 30 miles range (which means it would almost, almost, almost always be running on electric). Whoever doesn't have to drive more than 20 miles that day takes the PHEV (or, 20 miles without being able to easily recharge). The other person takes the BEV. The PHEV (which *must* be a clean-burning hybrid, and not just a middling generator for range, like the i3) would be used on trips.

But my ICE is 'only' 12 years old, and is a PZEV (if anybody even remembers that term... maybe it is particular to California?). PZEV is a CA rating for 'extremely clean burning gasoline vehicle' (PZEV = Partial Zero Emission Vehicle. govts and their acronyms!) . And it almost only gets driven on the freeway, when somebody has to drive over 40 miles, so it now normally gets well over 35 mpg, compared to the 27 city mpg. It generally just sits in front of the house. I hook it up to a trickle charger 2 times a month to make sure that the battery is maintained near a full charge. Last year we put about 3000 miles on it - and that includes the R/T to Ventura, and a R/T to Reno (and one to Sacramento). I know I'll use it 6-8 times a year, so it's cheaper to register and maintain than to rent. Until it starts breaking.

 

[PV1]

If I understand it right, PZEV shuts off the fuel when coasting. My work has a PZEV rated Ford Focus, and you can tell when it shuts the fuel off as the engine drags a bit more than normal.

Wouldn't the Bolt easily handle a 240-mile trip with one DCQC or destination charging? I've run A/C and did a mix of highway driving and main roads with some heavy acceleration and had an estimated range of 279 miles after charging, and all indications were that it would do every bit of it. Even if you only got about 200 miles on a charge, a 15 minute QC on the return leg or 2-hours destination charging should've covered it.

When long-tripping in the i-MiEV, I would go through a fast food drive-thru, then head down the road a bit to the quick charger. I'd plug the car in and eat while charging. It always timed out almost perfectly that when I finished eating, the car finished charging and I was on my way in about 15-20 minutes. This was the 2nd of two quick charges on that particular trip. The first stop was a bathroom break and grabbing a drink, and coming back to find the car waiting for me. 145 miles in a 62-mile EV with only 45-50 minutes of charging en-route. Of course, the Bolt can do that without stopping (now that I don't need to make that trip anymore :lol: ).

 

[SeanNelson]

I am very surprised and impressed though with how well the Bolt performed especially given these were highway speeds.

GM has consistently over-delivered on the specs for the car, and generously so. Before the reveal of the official EPA range, all they would claim is "at least 200 miles" - but they beat it by almost 20%. Contrast with Tesla which claimed "at least 215 miles" - which they only beat by about 2.5%, assuming that (a) the announced 220 mile range will be their official EPA figure and (b) that it's not overstated.

 

[phatcat73]

If you're a 1 car household, a bolt or any other pure EV will not work well, unless it's a Tesla with its supercharger network.

 

[Dgodfrey]

I am very surprised and impressed though with how well the Bolt performed especially given these were highway speeds.

GM has consistently over-delivered on the specs for the car, and generously so. Before the reveal of the official EPA range, all they would claim is "at least 200 miles" - but they beat it by almost 20%. Contrast with Tesla which claimed "at least 215 miles" - which they only beat by about 2.5%, assuming that (a) the announced 220 mile range will be their official EPA figure and (b) that it's not overstated.

Well it looks as though Tesla may have overdelivered with the Model 3 too.

And here's both Highway and City range with the Model 3 and Chevy Bolt:

Highway
Model 3: 89.4 kWh, 454.6 miles
Chevy Bolt: 66.5 kWh, 310.6 miles

UDDS
Model 3: 89.4 kWh, 495.1 miles
Chevy Bolt: 67.4 kWh, 364.4 miles

http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-gets-80-5-kwh-battery-258-hp/

 

[boltage]

But my ICE is 'only' 12 years old, and is a PZEV (if anybody even remembers that term... maybe it is particular to California?). PZEV is a CA rating for 'extremely clean burning gasoline vehicle' (PZEV = Partial Zero Emission Vehicle. govts and their acronyms!) .

PZEV is a CARB term that includes SULEV tailpipe emissions, no evaporative emissions from the fuel system, and extended emissions warranty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_zero-emissions_vehicle