Bolt winter performance, an ICE comparison

[SeanNelson]

I just finished up with an extended test drive ... This part of BC isn't the coldest place in the world ...

Where on earth were you able to find a Bolt for an extended multi-day test drive here in BC?

 

[IMAdolt]

Preston in Langley, probly dueck and the guys in surrey seem to have some stock too.

 

[SeanNelson]

Preston in Langley, probly dueck and the guys in surrey seem to have some stock too.

Wow, I'm impressed. When I was looking for a Bolt the dealers had nothing in stock and even if they did I have the feeling that they would have laughed at the idea of taking the car for a multi-day test drive.

 

[IMAdolt]

Preston in Langley, probly dueck and the guys in surrey seem to have some stock too.

Wow, I'm impressed. When I was looking for a Bolt the dealers had nothing in stock and even if they did I have the feeling that they would have laughed at the idea of taking the car for a multi-day test drive.

I guess most probably still would but Preston Langley set one aside as a demo model some time ago, its a Cajun red premier with smallish Preston decals along each side has over 1k km on it now thanks to me

Seems like there's maybe a couple dozen in stock in the region and they honestly expect to be restocked with MY 2018 before summer so whether or not that's actually going to happen they're getting "Motivated", not enough to really cut any prices but they'd like to see them sell soon I'm sure.

It seems like there's some ability for the dealers around this area to either trade stock or broker deals for each other without a lot of hassle near enough to MSRP.

If someone had the patience to wait for that demo to be sold they'd probably get a pretty good deal, I can't wait I really need to move to make sure I get a scrap-it incentive this year.

 

[SeanNelson]

If someone had the patience to wait for that demo to be sold they'd probably get a pretty good deal, I can't wait I really need to move to make sure I get a scrap-it incentive this year.

Be ready to pounce on that as soon as they get their new funding on January 15. Last year they ran out of funds in only a few months.

 

[IMAdolt]

I have a 95 corolla with nearly 400k km on it, I've been driving to work for the last year read to be crushed into a cube. Short of memerizing the VIN I'm about as ready as I can be.

I bought this for 500$ last January and it's a little sad because it's been on of the most reliable, low hassle cars I've ever owned.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

People driving ICEV's don't typically mention them and/or thier level of accuracy probably because those readouts are irrelevant. 600 miles of range, and 5-minute fill-up isn't thought of as an amazing technological breakthrough on a fuel efficient car. It's just expected, regardless of the season, or ambient temperature. No thermal underwear, heated socks, or 12V electric blankets required.

In terms of a winter (range) performance comparison, I have never experienced 30-50% range loss in winter with any other vehicle I've ever owned; but it happens frequently with my EV. Unfortunately, that sort of extreme is normal for a lot of us. We may try to sell ourselves on the notion that it isn't an "unreasonable amount" - but really, we aren't fooling anyone in the ICEV community; only ourselves. It is unreasonable. We just accept it.

What ICE car(s) have 600 miles of range? Most are 300-400.

I was able to stretch the 12 gallons in my Scion xA to over 600 miles about six times in the 10 years I had it, and I averaged about 550 miles in the summer. In the winter, I was able to get a bit over 400. So about a 25% loss of range in the winter.

Warm up time, and heat use definitely affect an ICE. Cold air is more dense, and aero drag affects all cars.

The worst range on our Bolt EV has been 152 miles. That was highway driving in 9F with four people. So, that is about 36% lower than the EPA. If we had a direct heating defroster in the Bolt EV, we would lose very little range.

 

[oilerlord]

What ICE car(s) have 600 miles of range? Most are 300-400.

Ford F-Series trucks are the best selling vehicles in North America. 600-700 miles with an F-150 on one tank of gas isn't unusual. The Prius Prime is rated at 640 miles. Pretty much any Audi, BMW, Mercedes, or VW can go at least 600 miles on one tank of diesel. We drove our VW down to Arizona in November, it was 6 degrees F. Drove 60 mph, with heater blasting, starting from Edmonton. I refueled on the second day in Butte, MT. 625 miles on ~13 gallons. We could have pushed 700 miles if we wanted to.

The new Chevy Cruze diesel is reported to be capable of over 700 miles on one tank.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/02/new-diesel-chevy-cruze-can-go-an-estimated-702-miles-on-a-single-tank-of-fuel/

 

[NeilBlanchard]

So, 3 vehicles. The average range is much less, though.

 

[Anonymous]

I live in Minnesota and I have had my Bolt for almost a year now. I'm just over 16k miles. My driving is very similar, roughly 50 mile roundtrip for commute. I typically set the cruise around 80mph on the interstate which is half of the drive. My garage is heated to about 40F but it sits outside at work and does not charge.
My range has gone down a lot more this winter than I expected. I had been hitting the 234-238 in the summer, but I got all the way down to about 130 total range. During some of the extremely cold weeks I was seeing energy usage around 70% for driving, 25% for climate, and 5% for battery conditioning.
The Onstar reports I get were showing 123MPGe last August and the latest report was all the way down to 67. I suspect this is beyond the extra energy usage for heating in the winter, but the battery capacity, perhaps through DCIR increases a lot at colder temps. Has anyone else seen this big of a drop in MPGe?View attachment Capture.JPG

 

[SeanNelson]

Has anyone else seen this big of a drop in MPGe?

I've seen as large drops in efficiency from the EPA-nominal 15.7kWh/100km to 30kWh/100km or even a bit worse - but for substantially different reasons. My driving is all over the map, but the worst efficiency for me comes from short trips with a lot of heater usage to get the car warm. But that's happening here in Vancouver where the temperatures are far milder (typically above freezing) than what you'd be seeing.

When I dress warmly and forgo the cabin heat I'm getting better than EPA-rated efficiency around town even in temps of around 5C (~40F) or so.

 

[gpsman]

People driving ICEV's don't typically mention them and/or thier level of accuracy probably because those readouts are irrelevant. 600 miles of range, and 5-minute fill-up isn't thought of as an amazing technological breakthrough on a fuel efficient car. It's just expected, regardless of the season, or ambient temperature. No thermal underwear, heated socks, or 12V electric blankets required.

In terms of a winter (range) performance comparison, I have never experienced 30-50% range loss in winter with any other vehicle I've ever owned; but it happens frequently with my EV. Unfortunately, that sort of extreme is normal for a lot of us. We may try to sell ourselves on the notion that it isn't an "unreasonable amount" - but really, we aren't fooling anyone in the ICEV community; only ourselves. It is unreasonable. We just accept it.

What ICE car(s) have 600 miles of range? Most are 300-400.

I just sold my Generation 1 Honda Insight.
It would go 1000+ miles per tank if you hypermile.
It would go 800 miles if you drove conservatively.
It would go 650 mile if you drove it like you stole it.

I routinely got about 770 miles per tank.

It used to make me laugh when the low gas light came on. That meant I had about 120 miles remaining.

Honda Insight: the only gasoline powered car with an on par fuel cost-per-mile to a BEV. And at half the cost of a BEV, half the cost of ownership. 1990’s technology too.

 

[oilerlord]

So, 3 vehicles. The average range is much less, though.

Neil, I'm not about to list dozens of vehicles that can achieve 600 miles of range on a tank because in the context of the discussion - it doesn't matter. I merely responded to the point that someone else made earlier about people driving ICE vehicles that don't mention their guess-o-meters. Again, the range remaining readout isn't that important when you can get several hundred miles of range on a tank of fuel. My VW's low fuel light comes on with ~80 miles remaining (according to the GOM). To GPSman's point, his Honda Insight's low-fuel warning light went on when he had 120 miles remaining. In extreme cold, a Bolt EV may get ~120 miles starting with a full charge. It makes sense that people driving an EV would appreciate a reasonably accurate miles-to-empty estimate.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

It used to make me laugh when the low gas light came on. That meant I had about 120 miles remaining.

It's a Honda thing. I used to drive a 1989 Honda Prelude. During one trip, the gas light came on, but every gas station I came across was closed (it was late at night, in the Adirondack Park, during the winter - not my brightest moment). I kept going until I found an open gas station. I too drove 120 miles with the gas light on. I wasn't laughing at the time, but in hindsight it's ridiculous. The car had a 16 gallon tank, but the light went on after you used 12 gallons.

 

[mwk]

So I'll chime in here. I got my Bolt at the end of October. I live near Boston and I have a 5 mile commute each way to work. When I first got the Bolt, the maximum range on the Instrument panel would show 200+ miles at full charge. As people know, we had that awful cold snap around late December/early January. At that point, at a full charge, the panel was showing at BEST a maximum range of 130 miles and a minimum of 95. Right now, this morning, it has been just "normal cold" here, temps just below freezing. My car, fully charged, is showing a maximum range of 130 and a minimum of 90, the "guess" in the middle is showing 110.

Now I'm aware that batteries don't hold a charge as well in cold weather, but to be honest I'm quite shocked at a loss of over 50% of range from what Chevy advertises. If I had purchased a "normal" EV with a "normal" advertised range of 75-80 miles, and I was looking at a range of 35 miles now in the winter, I'd be pissed. Yes, it's "physics", I get that. But it's also deceptive advertising too.

I was ultra-conservative, figuring that I have a very short commute, a EV charging station at work and the Bolt's range would give me plenty of extra leeway. Obviously it still does, and I'm not saying that I'm worried I'll run out of charge on the way home from work. HOWEVER, a minimum range of 90 miles rather than 200, DOES make me think twice and three times about taking the car for any longer trips around the area. There are places I go on occasion, which are roughly 100 miles round trip from my house. I am not comfortable taking the Bolt on those trips now, even though I had fully intended to use it that way when I leased it.

If EV's are ever going to be anything other than a tiny niche market of hard core environmentalists, or tech freaks, then manufacturers will need to do something about it. Even if an ICE were to lose 50% of it's range in the winter, it doesn't matter since you can stop to fill it up and be on your way in 10 minutes or less. I remember at one point in the past, someone had the great idea to design EV's with removable battery packs. You'd pull up to a service station and exchange your empty battery pack for a full one, and be on your way. Similar to how I fill the propane tank for my grill now. I wonder what ever happened to that idea?

At this point, although I love the Bolt and I love the way it drives, I just don't know if I'm going to stay with an EV when my lease is up, or give up and go back to an ICE.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

A few thoughts on the range-
1) Your EV will be much less efficient on your short commute than on a longer trip. This is due to the heater running full bore basically all of the time. On a long trip, once the car is up to temperature, the heater doesn't have to work as hard to maintain it. So even though it may show a middle range of 110 miles, it is likely closer to 150 if you just got in and drove.
2) EVs can fight back against physics to a degree. For example, Tesla now allows their cars to warm up the battery to a comfortable 60-70F before a long trip, allowing it to hold more energy. Chevy will likely follow suit (although probably not retro-actively on our cars via an OTA update, like Tesla has done).

As for the battery swapping idea, that has a host of problems. First, every car must use a standardized battery for it to be cost effective. That would mean everyone agrees to one standard size and format. Since the battery is the "secret sauce" of any EV, this is unlikely to happen in the near future. Second, you would have to keep a ton of pre-charged batteries sitting around waiting to be swapped. This just cannot be done economically until EVs hit a certain critical mass.

 

[DucRider]

So I'll chime in here. I got my Bolt at the end of October. I live near Boston and I have a 5 mile commute each way to work. When I first got the Bolt, the maximum range on the Instrument panel would show 200+ miles at full charge. As people know, we had that awful cold snap around late December/early January. At that point, at a full charge, the panel was showing at BEST a maximum range of 130 miles and a minimum of 95. Right now, this morning, it has been just "normal cold" here, temps just below freezing. My car, fully charged, is showing a maximum range of 130 and a minimum of 90, the "guess" in the middle is showing 110.

Now I'm aware that batteries don't hold a charge as well in cold weather, but to be honest I'm quite shocked at a loss of over 50% of range from what Chevy advertises. If I had purchased a "normal" EV with a "normal" advertised range of 75-80 miles, and I was looking at a range of 35 miles now in the winter, I'd be pissed. Yes, it's "physics", I get that. But it's also deceptive advertising too.

I was ultra-conservative, figuring that I have a very short commute, a EV charging station at work and the Bolt's range would give me plenty of extra leeway. Obviously it still does, and I'm not saying that I'm worried I'll run out of charge on the way home from work. HOWEVER, a minimum range of 90 miles rather than 200, DOES make me think twice and three times about taking the car for any longer trips around the area. There are places I go on occasion, which are roughly 100 miles round trip from my house. I am not comfortable taking the Bolt on those trips now, even though I had fully intended to use it that way when I leased it.

If EV's are ever going to be anything other than a tiny niche market of hard core environmentalists, or tech freaks, then manufacturers will need to do something about it. Even if an ICE were to lose 50% of it's range in the winter, it doesn't matter since you can stop to fill it up and be on your way in 10 minutes or less. I remember at one point in the past, someone had the great idea to design EV's with removable battery packs. You'd pull up to a service station and exchange your empty battery pack for a full one, and be on your way. Similar to how I fill the propane tank for my grill now. I wonder what ever happened to that idea?

At this point, although I love the Bolt and I love the way it drives, I just don't know if I'm going to stay with an EV when my lease is up, or give up and go back to an ICE.

The range you see for all EV's is from standardized testing following EPA mandated procedures. Automakers ALL use this figure, and it is required to be on the window sticker of the car.
As to the range of EV's in brutal NE cold temps...
The Fit EV was leased in all Section 177 States (CARB States), so they were available in your neck of the woods. One person on the Fit EV forum did not have garage space, so it was parked outside while charging. Got in one morning with below zero temps, car was fully charged, and estimated range was 0 (zero)! Not a happy camper. In reality the Fit EV "guess-o-meter" was ultra conservative (no Max or Min readings, just one number), and he likely would have been able to drive ~35 miles under those conditions (EPA rated 82). Some were returned to Honda, and subsequently leases then had a separate paper to be signed that warned of severe range decreases in cold temps.

Part of your low range issue is due to your short commute. While not as severe as an ICE, it takes a while for the car/pack to warm up, and short trips require this to occur every 5 miles (in you case). If your trips (and therefore recent history) were something like 25 miles, you would most likely find that your estimated range would go up. Your miles/kWh average would go up the longer you drove (battery and cabin will reach a stable operating temp, and less energy is required to keep it there). I think you would find those 100 mile trips would be no problem, and after taking one the estimated range after charging would increase. If you get the chance, throw a longer trip into your driving mix and see if it increases your "guess-o-meter" range. Pre-conditioning and/or setting it to finish charging just before you leave in the morning will also likely boost your range.

Swappable batteries were tried, and the company doing it went bankrupt (Better Place). Tesla discontinued their demonstration site (really only a way to garner additional ZEV credits). There is talk of others trying that model. One big drawback is that every manufacturer (and models within that manufacturers line) will need a different battery pack. If your local store had to stock different LP cyclinders for every grill out there, that service would not exist (as it is, it usually costs ~2x what refilling does). More:
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ic-car-battery-swapping-wont-happen-heres-why

I'm not arguing here that winter temps don't cause a significant drop in range, but it may not be as severe as you think. I spend a fair amount of time talking about EV's with those wanting to learn about them, and winter range is ALWAYS high on the list of what they need to be aware of.

EV's are different, and it is unlikely that we will see them refuel in the same manner that people have grown accustomed to with ICE vehicles. In many ways, refueling an EV is faster and much more convenient. Plug it in at night - about 10 seconds time, unplug in the morning - another 10 seconds, and your "tank" is full. The downside is refueling while on the road.
Fuel Cells are touted as meeting this need, but have their challenges as well. It does fit existing business models and usage patterns - Oil companies refine a petroleum product (Natural Gas in this case), pipe/truck it to stations. Consumers pull up, stick a nozzle in their vehicle and hand over their $$$. The main problem is that Hydrogen is a terrible battery - which is how it is being used in this scenario. Electricity is used to separate the hydrogen out of the Natural Gas. Electricity is used to compress and cool it (compressing it creates a lot of heat). When it reaches the hydrogen station it is put into storage tanks (storage is usually at about 5000 psi). When refueling a vehicle, it is further compressed and cooled - using electricity again - since the tanks in FCEV's store it @10,000 psi. It is then converted back to electricity by the fuel cell itself to drive the electric motors. Inefficient? Most think so.

 

[oilerlord]

Now I'm aware that batteries don't hold a charge as well in cold weather, but to be honest I'm quite shocked at a loss of over 50% of range from what Chevy advertises. If I had purchased a "normal" EV with a "normal" advertised range of 75-80 miles, and I was looking at a range of 35 miles now in the winter, I'd be pissed. Yes, it's "physics", I get that. But it's also deceptive advertising too.

If EV's are ever going to be anything other than a tiny niche market of hard core environmentalists, or tech freaks, then manufacturers will need to do something about it. Even if an ICE were to lose 50% of it's range in the winter, it doesn't matter since you can stop to fill it up and be on your way in 10 minutes or less.

At this point, although I love the Bolt and I love the way it drives, I just don't know if I'm going to stay with an EV when my lease is up, or give up and go back to an ICE.

^^This.

As part of MPG testing, one of the criteria is Cold Temperature testing:

There are a couple of problems with that test. One is that it assumes 20F is "cold". Another is that it doesn't seem to account for running the heater. Running the battery & cabin heater uses a lot of energy (up to 9 kW), but the EPA doesn't seem to account for it in their testing of EV's. GM does have YMMV disclaimers but those always seem to be in smaller font than the 238 Mile Range advertising. Technically, it isn't deception, but it is misleading.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

I also live in eastern Massachusetts, and we got our Bolt EV in mid September. The worst median mileage estimate we have seen was 152 miles. My family of four drove up to Freeport ME and back on December 31st, when it was about 9F, and we still got that range.

In September and October, we saw median ranges above 300 miles. 238 seems quite fair and sensible.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

My family of four drove up to Freeport ME and back on December 31st, when it was about 9F, and we still got that range.

Thanks for the data point, Neil. This is exactly what I was talking about. My range meter suffers from short-trip syndrome too. I rarely drive more than 5-10 miles before shutting the car off. This means that the car cools down and requires the heater at full power to heat back up. My range meter often shows 100 miles or fewer lately in the expected range on a full charge. But I have no doubts that I could get on the highway and drive for at least 140 miles (sadly, the distance to the nearest CCS charger that matters to me).