BMW man likes Bolt EV

[DucRider]

I generally agree, but you're omitting one other big difference: The Prius is painfully slow, and the Bolt isn't. Many people don't care about that, but many do. If you don't, then you may be a Prius customer...

The Prius C is plenty fast enough for me - I haven't been in any situations where I needed it to be any faster. Especially because I am very conscious of gulping down any more gallons of gas than necessary.

But yeah, I have no doubt the Bolt is a lot quicker and it would be fun to floor it without having to worry about wasting gas. Since almost all the electricity here in Vancouver Canada is hydro-generated I would have the luxury of driving like a maniac with zero worries about carbon emissions.

And that's really the thing that frustrates me the most about the Prius C. I call it a "gateway drug" to electric vehicles. It gives you this tantalizing smidgeon of a hint of what it's like to drive electric, and then the gas engine comes on. You can get it to stay in electric mode, but you have to be unreasonably patient with it (and hope that there's nobody behind you).

It's not the car's fault - it's not really the electric vehicle that I want it to be. It's really an ICE car that uses a battery and electric motor for efficiency. But for me at least, even though it's amazingly fuel efficient, it still feels like a gas guzzler.

Sounds like you might be a candidate for a Prius Prime. In EV mode, it will not fire the ICE if there is a charge in the battery, can go up to 84 mph in that EV mode, quicker to 40 mph that the non plug-in Prius, 0=60 in the same 10(ish) second time. Downside is "up to" 25 mile electric range and seats 4 (battery hump like the Volt).
Not sure about Canadian pricing, but in the US it is cheaper than the standard Prius after the $4,502 Tax Credit.

The Prime got a lot of attention at the Portland Auto Show. Fans of the Prius liked it (and it's "less ugly" to many as compared to the new Prius). We awarded $5K towards a purchase/lease in a drawing from those that test drove it.

I actually think the Prime is a big reason for the jump in Volt sales - it brings awareness and a bit of legitimacy to the genre.

But yeah, it's essentially just a basic hatchback that happens to be electric.

That's exactly what GM was aiming for, and they pretty much nailed it. I talked to hundreds of people last weekend about EV's, and the Bolt is appealing to a much wider audience than any other EV has been able to attract. Mainly because it IS "just a basic hatchback", is electric and exceeds 200 miles of EPA range. The range is the biggie, and the impact of range/price point is what is attractive to so many that never considered an EV before.

The only vehicle Chevy was test driving on Friday was the Bolt (Thur, Sat, Sun were a mix). The demand was so high for the Bolt on Saturday and Sunday, they added more back into the fleet to meet demand.

The Bolt's biggest audience is those new to EV's. The first are being snapped up by EV enthusiasts, but the long term market is bringing a whole new crop into the fold. Only about 25% of those looking hard at the Bolt were current EV owners. A large percentage were Prius (or other hybrid) drivers.

A side note to Oiler- the B250e was by far the second most popular BEV in the EV Showcase (behind the Bolt and excluding the Model X and "White Zombie"). It was somewhat surprising (to me) how many thought it was new to market this year. People sitting in it fell in love with the interior, but were disappointed by the range/price. If someone can deliver something like the B250e with the range of the Bolt and come within a few thousand on price ($5k?), it would be a major hit. I don't see it coming from Mercedes, but who knows....

 

[SeanNelson]

Sounds like you might be a candidate for a Prius Prime. In EV mode, it will not fire the ICE if there is a charge in the battery, can go up to 84 mph in that EV mode, quicker to 40 mph that the non plug-in Prius, 0=60 in the same 10(ish) second time. Downside is "up to" 25 mile electric range and seats 4 (battery hump like the Volt).

I was planning to buy a Gen2 Volt until I actually got a chance to see one and became very disillusioned with the rear seating room and terrible rear visibility. It's a shame they didn't introduce the rear camera mirror with the Volt because IMHO it really needs it more than the Bolt does.

And when that happened they had announced the Bolt, and I realized that because of it's range and affordability it essentially rendered plug-in hybrids obsolete for me. If there's one thing I've learned from the Prius C it's how annoyed I've become about the gas engine coming on. I do plenty of trips longer than the all-electric range of even a Volt, and I know every time that gas engine starts up I'll rue not having gotten an all-electric car when I could have afforded to.

But yeah, it's essentially just a basic hatchback that happens to be electric.

That's exactly what GM was aiming for, and they pretty much nailed it. I talked to hundreds of people last weekend about EV's, and the Bolt is appealing to a much wider audience than any other EV has been able to attract.

Yeah, the Bolt is exactly the form factor I'm looking for. It could be a few inches shorter and I'd like it to have as tight a turning radius as the Prius C, but those are very, very small nitpicks. It's basically perfect for me. But so are a lot of other small hatchbacks, or at least they would be if they were electric. I don't get all the glowing praise about how amazingly spacious the Bolt is because from what I've seen that seems to be the standard to which small hatches are built these days.

And I chuckle a bit at the people who seem disappointed because it's not a Tesla-like sedan. Geez - if you want a sedan then buy the Model 3 when it comes out. I for one am tremendously happy that GM chose the form factor it did. Not only does it let them avoid head-on direct competition with Tesla, but it also provides those of us in the market for an electric car a broader range of options. Good work, GM.

The only vehicle Chevy was test driving on Friday was the Bolt (Thur, Sat, Sun were a mix). The demand was so high for the Bolt on Saturday and Sunday, they added more back into the fleet to meet demand.

Wow, I'm glad I got there on Thursday. I took a test drive right around lunch hour and there was zero wait. I was anticipated having to wait for a while but was quite pleasantly surprised. Glad to hear it was popular on the weekend, though.

But I am a little wary about the seats. I could feel why a few other people are complaining and while the seating wasn't uncomfortable for me, it was only for a ride of a few minutes - and I could definitely feel the hard ridge each time I swiveled to get out of the car. I'm going to have to do a longer test drive when they become available here in Vancouver Canada in a couple of months' time.

 

[oilerlord]

I think I pretty much agree with this assessment. It's easy to get caught up in the hype around the car, but I came down to earth again after I drove down to the Portland Auto Show so I could actually sit in one and take it on a short test drive.

Rather than being astounded at the Bolt, my experience gave me more respect for my Prius C, which for me is pretty much every bit as utilitarian as the Bolt is. The Prius C doesn't have quite as much headroom in the front, but it's well more than adequate for me. It doesn't have quite as much legroom in the back as the Bolt does, but it's got enough and it's certainly way roomier back there than the Volt is. And my car doesn't have the extra hidden cargo compartment under the floor, but it does manage to stow a spare tire down under there which is actually more important to me. And the Prius C's cargo area is almost exactly the same size.

So as far as I'm concerned the Bolt doesn't really represent any "step up" from my Prius C aside from the fact that it's electric and that it has a lot of new features that I like, such as the surround vision, front and rear cameras, etc. Although I could get most of those in a new Prius C.

Don't get me wrong - I think the electric range and price point are a big deal, and that's the reason I'm planning to buy a Bolt. And it's also true that they did a good job on the layout (they didn't screw up the design by having the battery impinge on passenger space the way the Volt's battery does).

But yeah, it's essentially just a basic hatchback that happens to be electric. It's the electric range and groundbreaking price that make it unique. Right now that's enough - but in the coming years GM's challenge will be to find ways to keep it competitive when other electric cars start rolling out with similar ranges and prices.

It's going to be very interesting to see how the other manufacturers compete with the Bolt over the coming few years.

Wow, Sean...you and I on the same page?? Not sure this has happened before, but I think I like it!

I'd like to see the competition more in terms of a US-Russia space-race...where there was a desire in pushing the limits of what's possible - rather than a competition with a particular EV. Competing with the Bolt is only competing on price, in the same way China was dumping cheap solar modules (before tariffs were introduced). Sure, that makes the product less expensive for consumers but does it move the technology forward? Not really.

We need to see more bleeding edge stuff like the Porsche 918 and BMW i8. Cars that explore the limits of electrification, and blending that technology with performance. At some point, breakthroughs trickle down to EV's that the rest of us can afford. I think the next big thing needs to be finding ways to make lighter batteries with twice the energy densigy. Right now, the Bolt's 60 kWh battery weighs about 900 pounds. Could you imagine how a 300 pound 60 kWh battery that takes up half the space would change the game? That's the kind of "game changer" I'm waiting for.

 

[SeanNelson]

Could you imagine how a 300 pound 60 kWh battery that takes up half the space would change the game? That's the kind of "game changer" I'm waiting for.

I think it will happen, but I don't think it will be considered a "game changer" because my guess is that it's going to be an ongoing process of refinement, with a bit of improvement each year until, before we know it, we look back at cars like the Bolt and chuckle over the huge batteries.

 

[Nagorak]

I don't get all the glowing praise about how amazingly spacious the Bolt is because from what I've seen that seems to be the standard to which small hatches are built these days.

A lot of a small hatchbacks are really small. The Bolt and Leaf are significantly bigger than Ford Fiesta, Honda Fit or Chevy Spark. As a tall person with a tall family those cars are literally unusable for us. The person in the back seat ends up with legs pushing against the seat, even with the driver's seat uncomfortably forward.

I can't sit in the back seat of a Honda Civic, Chevy Volt, or Mazda 3 (non-hatchback). My head is pushed against the ceiling in such a way that I'm afraid my neck would be broken if we were rear ended (compressed between the seat and the sloping down roof). That's not a problem in the Bolt or the Leaf.

If you're not faced with those problems then maybe it doesn't seem that much bigger, but it definitely is.

 

[oilerlord]

A lot of a small hatchbacks are really small. The Bolt and Leaf are significantly bigger than Ford Fiesta, Honda Fit or Chevy Spark. As a tall person with a tall family those cars are literally unusable for us. The person in the back seat ends up with legs pushing against the seat, even with the driver's seat uncomfortably forward.

I can't sit in the back seat of a Honda Civic, Chevy Volt, or Mazda 3 (non-hatchback). My head is pushed against the ceiling in such a way that I'm afraid my neck would be broken if we were rear ended (compressed between the seat and the sloping down roof). That's not a problem in the Bolt or the Leaf.

If you're not faced with those problems then maybe it doesn't seem that much bigger, but it definitely is.

For a micro car, the Spark EV actually has good rear legroom. Both the Bolt and the Spark preserve legroom at the expense of cargo capacity. Though the Bolt does have a bit more cargo area behind the rear seats; it's still quite small. A medium size dog crate just fits in our B250e behind the rear seats. There's no chance it would fit in the Bolt.

Spark EV Cargo Area:

Bolt EV Cargo Area:

The Bolt has the advantage of a deeper floor but front to back there isn't all that much more cargo area given how the seats slope rearward in both cars.

 

[sgt1372]

I just leased a Bolt LT and still own a BMW 335i. Apples and oranges. I like them both.

 

[Fargoneandout]

I just leased a Bolt LT and still own a BMW 335i. Apples and oranges. I like them both.

I'm about two weeks in and agree that they are apples and oranges but I too like them both a great deal (328i Msport and Bolt EV, standard tires).

The one thing I've learned about the Bolt now that I've had a change to wring it out is that indeed it does have some wicked torque steer. I flung it around a couple of corners and hit the throttle hard mid turn and it was like a squirrel being chased around the yard by a retriever - not really quite sure where it was going to end up. And on WOT in the straightline in sport mode, I haven't gotten the tires to fully break free yet but again it is pretty squirrelly directionally speaking until full traction is achieved. Not quite as fun as drifting, but I'll take more power and torque steer than less power and flaccidity.

Note to Mary Barra. LSD does NOT mean lyseric diethyl amide but rather limited-slip differential. Torque vectoring would work too. I know it is a lot to ask, but I have to think a BoltS EV with an LSD and some summer tires would be a total hoot. I've still got a set of summer tires to mount and once I get around to it I'll do the same runs and see if it improves directional predictivity and stability under hard acceleration.

 

[sgt1372]

I just leased a Bolt LT and still own a BMW 335i. Apples and oranges. I like them both.

I'm about two weeks in and agree that they are apples and oranges but I too like them both a great deal (328i Msport and Bolt EV, standard tires).

The one thing I've learned about the Bolt now that I've had a change to wring it out is that indeed it does have some wicked torque steer. I flung it around a couple of corners and hit the throttle hard mid turn and it was like a squirrel being chased around the yard by a retriever - not really quite sure where it was going to end up. And on WOT in the straightline in sport mode, I haven't gotten the tires to fully break free yet but again it is pretty squirrelly directionally speaking until full traction is achieved. Not quite as fun as drifting, but I'll take more power and torque steer than less power and flaccidity.

I haven't really pushed the traction limits of the Bolt yet. Just floored the accelerator a few times basically going straight. However, I have taken some 90 degree corners at speed in a controlled way and it sticks the turns like a champ.

Will have to take it on the back roads this weekend to see what it can really do.

However, I have learned how to make it really "go is just to push the sport button in and "hit" it. No rubber burning but it really takes off from a standing start. Won't win an time-speed records but it does leave the rest of the pack WAY back. :lol:

 

[oilerlord]

The one thing I've learned about the Bolt now that I've had a change to wring it out is that indeed it does have some wicked torque steer. I flung it around a couple of corners and hit the throttle hard mid turn and it was like a squirrel being chased around the yard by a retriever - not really quite sure where it was going to end up.

Note to Mary Barra. LSD does NOT mean lyseric diethyl amide but rather limited-slip differential. Torque vectoring would work too. I know it is a lot to ask, but I have to think a BoltS EV with an LSD and some summer tires would be a total hoot. I've still got a set of summer tires to mount and once I get around to it I'll do the same runs and see if it improves directional predictivity and stability under hard acceleration.

Yeah, not going to happen. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you wanted a performance EV you can fling around corners without torque steer there is a certain German manufacturer that builds one.

 

[boltage]

Yeah, not going to happen. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you wanted a performance EV you can fling around corners without torque steer there is a certain German manufacturer that builds one.

You mean an American manufacturer?

 

[sgt1372]

Oillord: I think you miss the point.

A car enthusiast is a car enthusiast. It doesn't matter what kind of car he drives, he will always be interested in trying to drive whatever he's driving as fast as he can just to have "fun" and to test the limits of the car.

I use to do that in my VW Beetle -- which never had any "power" to speak of -- back in the 60's and I still do it to this day in anything else that I drive.

I won't drive my Bolt "that way" every day but it's good to know what the car can do -- how fast it can go and how well it can handle in other than "straight" driving conditions -- for the time(s) when it may be necessary to use those abilities of the car.

PS: I've driven a Tesla Roadster and still have a deposit on an M3.

 

[Schnort]

Yeah, not going to happen. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you wanted a performance EV you can fling around corners without torque steer there is a certain German manufacturer that builds one.

BMW really ought to make a performance oriented 1 series (or Z) EV.

It's a market segment that's been entirely ignored since the original Tesla Roadster.

The i3 is OK (and pretty spritely for what it is), but it isn't a sports car and it's handling was squirrelly for other reasons than torque steer.

 

[EldRick]

You can get a low-mileage i8 for less than the cost of a Tesla. Looks like a lot of people buy and don't keep them long; there are four pages of them available on Autotrader.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Yeah, not going to happen. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you wanted a performance EV you can fling around corners without torque steer there is a certain German manufacturer that builds one.

BMW really ought to make a performance oriented 1 series (or Z) EV.

It's a market segment that's been entirely ignored since the original Tesla Roadster.

The i3 is OK (and pretty spritely for what it is), but it isn't a sports car and it's handling was squirrelly for other reasons than torque steer.

BMW is actually seriously considering it. But they are a conservative company heavily ingrained in ICE tech. As are all German firms...going electric is going to cause them a huge dilemma as their bread and butter is the ICE.

 

[sgt1372]

BMW is actually seriously considering it. But they are a conservative company heavily ingrained in ICE tech. As are all German firms...going electric is going to cause them a huge dilemma as their bread and butter is the ICE.

Germany is reportedly going EV only by 2030 and is pushing for all of Europe to do that too but BMW and other German car makers will still make ICE vehicles for the US and other markets. Wouldn't make sense for them not to do so as long as ICE vehicles are still allowed elsewhere.

See: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/germany-pushes-europe-ban-gas-diesel-cars/

 

[JupiterMoon]

BMW is actually seriously considering it. But they are a conservative company heavily ingrained in ICE tech. As are all German firms...going electric is going to cause them a huge dilemma as their bread and butter is the ICE.

Germany is reportedly going EV only by 2030 and is pushing for all of Europe to do that too but BMW and other German car makers will still make ICE vehicles for the US and other markets. Wouldn't make sense for them not to do so as long as ICE vehicles are still allowed elsewhere.

See: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/germany-pushes-europe-ban-gas-diesel-cars/

Well it would make sense for the environment but hey who cares about that in the US government? Especially now....

 

[oilerlord]

Germany is reportedly going EV only by 2030 and is pushing for all of Europe to do that too but BMW and other German car makers will still make ICE vehicles for the US and other markets. Wouldn't make sense for them not to do so as long as ICE vehicles are still allowed elsewhere.

See: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/germany-pushes-europe-ban-gas-diesel-cars/

Yeah, that's not going to happen either. I've read several iterations of that "story" and they become more and more misleading as it's regurgitated. It's now become akin to fake news. Here is the actual resolution:

https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2016/0301-0400/387-16(B).pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1

It's in German but in brief - the document is only a set of suggestions for the EU commission and doesn't ban anything. In reality, banning diesel, gasoline or really any kind of vehicle, much less setting a timetable for such ban is beyond the scope of authority of the Bundesrat.

 

[boltage]

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=26372 shows Germany's electric power generation.

44% coal
10% natural gas
01% oil
15% nuclear
31% renewables

The article mentions that the grid there has difficulty handling regional imbalances in generation and consumption.

 

[HotPotato]

A comparison between an i3 and a Bolt is apples & oranges. One is an upscale, lightweight, carbon-fiber performance / luxury car, the other is an economy car.

Agreed that the i3 has the markers of "upscale": it's expensive, the badge on the nose won't shame you at the country club, and it has a nice interior---although this undone a fair bit by the Pacer-meets-moon-buggy styling. And it is commendably lightweight due to the carbon fiber. But it is neither a performance car not a luxury car. It is a city car. Under 45 mph, it is an incredibly pleasant and relaxing place to spend time, with the airy cabin and handsome materials and optional upgraded stereo. Over 45 mph, out on the freeway, it is a different story. The bicycle tires follow every groove in the highway, the bluff sides catch every crosswind, the steering is abrupt and has all the feel of a Sega controller, and the short wheelbase ensures that every resulting twitch is felt. Not just disappointing and unpleasant: scary. (The ride at speed is no great shakes either.)

The Bolt is quicker (considerably quicker than the i3 REx), and has proper tires and a longer wheelbase. It behaves like a real car, a good car, at any speed.

I love the i3 for what it is: the best short-range city car you can buy. When our Fiat 500e lease is up, we'll consider one for that role.