Amazing low cost to run an EV

[LeftieBiker]

Ho, SNAP! ;-)

 

[SeanNelson]

2) Subtract the $17/mo connection fee (flat fee, doesn't change regardless of my consumption) so that I'm calculating incremental cost per kWh.

Yep, it's perfectly cromulent to exclude fixed costs if you were paying for those anyway even before you got your EV.

 

[iletric]

$17/mo connection fee...

You're saying you pay no delivery charges, i.e. you're off the grid. Because if not, you have to pay delivery as well. This is why I take the entire electric bill divided by kWh to give me an accurate idea what I actually pay for each mile.

My bill has 2 components by 2 companies, kWh charges by MCE (Marin Clean Energy), and PG&E charges (delivery), both killing me equally. My summer juice goes up to 21 cents, winter is about 2 cents less.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

No, I included supply and delivery charges in my numbers. I get it, you don't believe I can be paying such a rate. It seems like nothing will convince you short of seeing a paper bill. So be it, I don't need to prove myself to you.

 

[iletric]

I guess Bay Area Californians get price-gouged on their utilities as compared to NY.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

This is true. Keep in mind I'm in Syracuse, not NYC. Things are much cheaper upstate. I have no idea what the rates are in the tristate area.

 

[winterescape]

I guess Bay Area Californians get price-gouged on their utilities as compared to NY.

And depending where you live in upstate it can get even cheaper. We benefit from municipal power and long term contracts with hydroelectric suppliers, think Niagara Falls. We currently pay $4.53 /month connection fee and $0.04 per KWh with no distribution charges. Any power consumed in excess of 1,000 kWh’s in a winter month is billed at $0.06 per KWh.

http://www.village.fairport.ny.us/uploads/1/7/6/5/17656211/2017_fmc_rate_sheet__after_order__final.pdf

"The Village owns and operates Fairport Electric, one of the 47 municipally owned power companies in New York. More than 14,000 customers in the Village and Perinton receive considerably less expensive power than other areas - about 1/3 the rate charged by nearby utilities. " CONSUMER OWNED AND MUNICIPALLY OPERATED

Bitter cold, it is only 5Deg F here today, lots of snow from lake Ontario, but cheep electricity...

 

[iletric]

We currently pay $4.53 /month connection fee and $0.04 per KWh with no distribution charges

Wow! I get the picture.

PG&E is the king here. They bill us for all the square miles of fires caused by downed power lines and blown up gas lines, all costing billions in judgments and insurance costs.

 

[Tarrngtn]

We now have two monthly electricity bills with the Bolt charged at home by our Level 2 charging station. My 2005 CRV costs about ten cents per mile just for gas (oil changes etc extra). I figure one-half cent per mile for the Bolt via the electric company. This is figuring the additional electricity we have used for these two months as compared to Nov/Dec in the previous three years. Once we get the additional panels we have ordered, the Bolt will be 100% solar powered. In a sense the cost is then zero since the power company will again be paying us a little each quarter. In December we had to pay them a little -- the first time in three years. But, of course one has to figure the cost of the solar panels (both the original ones for the house and the new ones for the Bolt) as capital we did not invest in stocks/bonds, etc. So we realize that we are not really getting electricity for our house and power for the Bolt for free. But we feel it is worth it to reduce our carbon footprint even if we don't really "save" any money. In any case the amount of electricity used per mile is really small, and the Bolt is fun.

If one-half cent per mile seems way off to others, perhaps I figured wrong. Given changes in the weather and sunshine, exact calculation is difficult. We have net metering with PNM, but not time of day pricing.

 

[WetEV]

If one-half cent per mile seems way off to others, perhaps I figured wrong.

4 miles per kWh at 12 cents per kWh gives 3 cents per mile. Adjust for your mileage and electric rates.

There are people in Washington state with 2.6 cent electric rates. With that and 5.2 miles per kWh, one-half cent would be possible.

 

[gpsman]

But just for the sake of discussion calculate the payback for the owner who always charges at free-off-site stations; his "Amazing low cost to run an EV" is zero.

jack vines

I fit into this category.

Free charging available at work.
Free (Solar) charging available at my college.
Free charging available at my Doctor’s parking garage. Free charging available at many local retailers. And I shop those retailers. (This is Bay Area, CA and public charging is almost as prevalent as gas stations.)

Like GeoCaching, a trendy hobby, finding free or low cost public charging opportunities has become a hobby of mine. I enjoy the treasure hunt.

I have spent exactly $104.60 for 13,455 miles of driving my Bolt EV. This is 0.78 cent per mile. (I’ve taken a few long-distance trips and paid for DCFC.)

It IS amazing the low cost of driving an EV in California.

 

[BobsBolt]

I also love free charges. I am amazed at how many are available.

But in terms of long term economics, the initial costs of the cars will need to come down or the price of gas go up before it makes economics sense.

I am pretty sure there will be no free charges when EVs hit 100%. What about 10%?

In Canada a large percentage of the gas price is various taxes. Not sure about the situation in the US. At some point those revenues will have to be made up in some way.

 

[gpsman]

I am pretty sure there will be no free charges when EVs hit 100%. What about 10%?

In Canada a large percentage of the gas price is various taxes. Not sure about the situation in the US. At some point those revenues will have to be made up in some way.

Yes here also. In the USA it varries by state. But gasoline taxes are 20% to 30% of the cost of gasoline.

In CA they want to (maybe it started in 2018?) put a $100/yr flat fee on electric vehicles for road repair, since we are not paying gasoline tax.

Edit: looks like they have not implemented any special electric vehicle fee in CA.... yet....

 

[Tarrngtn]

I hope no such flat fee for EVs is enacted. That would be bad public policy, since encouraging EV cars is clearly in the public interest long term. Eventually some other way to pay for roads will have to be enacted, but not soon. In the meantime having gas guzzlers pay for the roads w/o EVs is a form of carbon tax. It encourages EVs at the expense of those who pollute. In the long term a milage tax will have to be enacted, but that would be after EVs are a much, much higher percentage of the cars on the road.

 

[SparkEVPilot]

I hope no such flat fee for EVs is enacted. That would be bad public policy, since encouraging EV cars is clearly in the public interest long term. Eventually some other way to pay for roads will have to be enacted, but not soon. In the meantime having gas guzzlers pay for the roads w/o EVs is a form of carbon tax. It encourages EVs at the expense of those who pollute. In the long term a milage tax will have to be enacted, but that would be after EVs are a much, much higher percentage of the cars on the road.

California recently completed a 9-month test of a Road Charge Project wherein ALL California drivers would eventually pay by the number of miles driven. Approximately 5000 vehicles of different types and from different areas across the state were involved. I participated in the project with 2 Spark EVs and, at the end of the project, I thought it would be quite fair to all drivers. However, implementation across 30+ million light duty vehicles in California will be a formidable task. Meanwhile, California plans to implement the $100 per year EV tax starting with the 2020 models. To be sure, air polution is a major concern. So is the deteriorating infrastructure of California's highway system. Both have to be fixed.

If you are interested in reading the report on the California Road Charge Program, go to this link: http://www.dot.ca.gov/road_charge/

 

[oilerlord]

Once we get the additional panels we have ordered, the Bolt will be 100% solar powered. In a sense the cost is then zero since the power company will again be paying us a little each quarter. In December we had to pay them a little -- the first time in three years. But, of course one has to figure the cost of the solar panels (both the original ones for the house and the new ones for the Bolt) as capital we did not invest in stocks/bonds, etc. So we realize that we are not really getting electricity for our house and power for the Bolt for free.

Along with figuring the cost of the panels/inverters/labor/etc., each kWh your solar generates has value - it isn't "free" or should be considered as a $0.00 value. For example, if the cost per kWh in your area is $0.12 - one kWh generated from your solar is worth $0.12 regardless if you sell it to the power company, or consume it in your Bolt.

As Jack mentioned, if overall lowest cost per mile / lowest total cost of ownership is the primary goal; a 2018 Chevy Sonic starts at $15,295. You an buy a lot of gasoline & oil changes for the ~$15,000 price difference of a Bolt LT. At some point, we may see $99 Bolt leases; that's when the TCO game changes. The guys driving those $79/month Spark EV's are laughing all the way to the bank on GM's dime.

 

[Tarrngtn]

What California does is of only academic interest to me, since I don't live there. Deterioration of the roads is an important concern. But road repair/upkeep should, for now, be paid for by increasing the gas tax paid by people who drive ICE cars. When there are enough EVs on the roads, that would have to change, but for now it makes no sense to give EV cars a state and federal subsidy when purchased and then tax them specially later on. If the state wants to encourage EVs (and California does) then a special tax rather than increasing the gas tax rate makes no sense. Politically (this is something I do know about) it may be easier to tax a small number of people (most of whom have good incomes) rather than raise the taxes paid at the pump by many people, most of whom don't care about EVs or the environment. What is politically convenient and what is good policy may not be the same thing.

 

[SparkEVPilot]

What California does is of only academic interest to me, since I don't live there. Deterioration of the roads is an important concern. But road repair/upkeep should, for now, be paid for by increasing the gas tax paid by people who drive ICE cars. When there are enough EVs on the roads, that would have to change, but for now it makes no sense to give EV cars a state and federal subsidy when purchased and then tax them specially later on. If the state wants to encourage EVs (and California does) then a special tax rather than increasing the gas tax rate makes no sense. Politically (this is something I do know about) it may be easier to tax a small number of people (most of whom have good incomes) rather than raise the taxes paid at the pump by many people, most of whom don't care about EVs or the environment. What is politically convenient and what is good policy may not be the same thing.

here is a summary of what has and will happen to California's gasoline tax:

Existing: The base excise tax is 18 cents a gallon. A price-based excise tax is currently set at 9.8 cents a gallon, for a total rate of 27.8 cents a gallon.
Nov. 1, 2017: The base excise tax will increase to 30 cents a gallon.
July 1, 2019: The price-based excise tax will reset to 17.3 cents a gallon, about half-a-cent more than the rate the Brown administration projects will be in effect by then anyway.
The 47.3-cent combined excise tax in effect July 1, 2019 will be adjusted for inflation beginning July 1, 2020.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article147437054.html#storylink=cpy

 

[mchapmon]

I've not had mine long, but I am averaging just over 4 miles per kWh. I've been used to trying to squeeze as much mileage as possible out of my ICE vehicles, so my driving technique hasn't required much adjusting.

I am connected to a local TVA distributor, paying $0.12 per kWh for electricity, so one could say $0.03/mile and call it good. I also have a 6810 watt solar array, and am signed on as a Green Power Program Green Energy Provider since Dec 2012. The generated electricity is bought from me at retail plus $0.12 per kWh for 10 years. It will be just retail for the next 10 years.

I bought mine because I want to be an example to others who may be considering buying an EV and I want to be able to say, "I did all that I could do to lower my impact on the environment."

As a side note, it would be more revealing if everyone put their location in their member profile so we could see where all these rates are coming from.

 

[Tarrngtn]

We live in Albuquerque. We have net metering with PNM, so exact charges are hard to figure. If we use more kWh than our solar panels generate they charge us at one rate. If we generate more than we use we get a refund at a lower rate. For the last three years we have consistently generated more than we consume. PNM has paid us about $100 each year. We bought the Bolt in mid October. At that point we had an unpaid credit with PNM. We used that up and had to pay PNM about $25 in December and January. Five additional solar panels were installed at the end of January. For February we had a 4 cent credit with PNM. So our Bolt is now running on solar power. We must be pretty close to the zero balance that is most desirable. Having more generating capacity than one needs is not good because they pay at a lower rate. The sun is low in February and it was a cold and relatively cloudy month. So we expect to continue to have small credits from PNM in the future. We drive the bolt 600-800 miles a month and do all charging at home. May not be economic, but it feels good.