Ultra-Fast-charging just around the corner ???

[SparkE]

News from the InterWebs ...

So it looks like the technology to provide freeway "EV fills" will be rolling out very soon, and it is 'future proofed'. ChargePoint will be rolling Express Plus out (?installed?) in July 2017. There will be liquid-cooled cables/handles! It looks like plug types can be a mix of any of : CHAdeMO, CCS, or Tesla.

ChargePoint has just announced their "Express Plus" DCFC "ultra-fast" charging architecture/solution. Up to 400 kW charging at one plug; modular solution(s) such as : start w/ a pair of stations (?at 50 kW rate?), OR have a "PowerCube" that can run up to 8 stations where any one plug can get 187 kW max and all 8 together can pull 125 kW at the same time, OR have a PowerCube running 4 stations, which can provide 312 kW max, or 187 kW on all 4 simultaneously, OR ...etc...

Press Release here : https://www.chargepoint.com/about/ne...rging-platform

More info here : https://www.chargepoint.com/products...l/express-plus

ChargePoint Express Plus, the ultra-fast DC charging solution that is ready for the electric cars, buses and trucks of today and tomorrow. Express Plus can charge today’s newest electric vehicles, such as the Chevy Bolt EV, at their maximum rate; is equipped to charge upcoming EVs such as the Tesla Model 3 and is ready to deliver maximum charging speed to EVs coming to market in the years to come. A modular platform designed for businesses and charging centers along major roadways or transit depots, Express Plus can deliver up to 400 kilowatts ...

 

[SparkE]

Ionity (joint venture by BMW, Mercedes, Ford and VW/Audi /Porsche) is talking about rolling out (before end of 2019) a 150-350kW charging network, in both the U.S. and Europe.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/06/map-ionity-ultra-fast-charging-network/

https://electrek.co/2017/11/27/ionity-ultra-fast-electric-car-charging-network-partners-with-petrol-stations-chargers/

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2017/11/03/ionity---pan-european-high-power-charging-network-enables-e-mobi.html

 

[SparkE]

Oh, and a follow-up on my first post from a year ago (copied from another thread) :

There isn't a lot of info on the unit about this (or maybe I just missed it), but I would *hope* that if one has a station with (say) 4 charge spots, and a max output of (say) 300 kW that if 4 cars are connected that could charge at a max rate of 100kW, that as each vehicle ramped down their charging as the battery filled, that the other cars would get their rate ramped up (if they asked for it).

The Bolt only charges at the max rate until about 50-55% of SoC, then drops down to round 37 kW, and then at around 70-75% SoC drops to a mid/low 20s kW rate.

Yup, I missed it. The link provided has the followng :

Dynamic Power Sharing: Utility connections can be oversubscribed and power is intelligently allocated among vehicles based on each battery’s state of charge (SoC) and instantaneous maximum charge rate. Every car always charges as fast as possible to minimize driver wait times.

I also missed the examples, :
* Start with conjoined Express Plus Stations.

*Add a cube for more power: eight stations per Power Cube provide up to 187 kW continuous power per port and 125 kW simultaneous power on all eight stations.

*Add another cube for additional power: four stations per Power Cube share 750 kW, providing up to 312 kW continuous power per station and 187 kW simultaneous power on all four stations.

I think the business profitability for "EV stations" along heavily travelled routes with strong EV concentration will increase tremendously once there are 100,000 (or maybe 200,000) (non-Tesla) EVs with 220+ mile range because people will use them. Once (non-Tesla) 340+ mile range EVs become numerous (90+ kWh batteries?) that can charge at 125 kW (or more) these units should sell like hotcakes, and the profitability of running these stations increases. Installing a pair today future-proofs the installation. Hopefully two Express Plus stations aren't 4 times the price of two Express 250 stations...

Edit: I looked more closely at the specs, and the max kW output is at ... 1000 V. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single EV today with a pack voltage much over 400V - so halve those max kW numbers (although the buyer is 'future proofed' if/when cars with 600V or 800V packs show up). A single station has a max output of 400 A, so that is still impressive (160 kW at 400V).

It's an older article, but this page (article at Electrek) has the best description of these high-debit ChargePoint DCFCs (better than what *I* have found at CP, in fact) :

Chargepoint announces 400 kW charging
https://electrek.co/2017/01/05/chargepoint-400-kw-charing-electric-vehicle-range/

 

[Kirknc]

I have to wonder how today’s batteries would handle this high level charging. Can they cool the batteries enough? I also wonder about the impact on longevity.

 

[boltage]

I have to wonder how today’s batteries would handle this high level charging. Can they cool the batteries enough? I also wonder about the impact on longevity.

Today's EVs presumably have software that limits the charging rate to what the manufacturer specified to stay within the temperature and longevity specs desired by the manufacturer.

In other threads, it has been discussed that the Bolt reduces maximum charging rate as the battery gets more full.

 

[SparkE]

The thing you plug into the vehicle to charge it tells the car what it can provide (current, voltage). The car then decides how much to pull.

For example, plugging a 32Amp/240V EVSE into a PHEV that will pull a max of 3.3 kW : car pulls 3.3 kW (max). Plugging a 16A/240V EVSE into a Bolt? The Bolt pulls 16A (max). Plugging a 24 kW (max) DCFC into a Bolt? Bolt pulls 24 kW (max). Plug a 200 kW DCFC into a Bolt? It will pull whatever the max rate the car determines - NOT the max of the charger.

The Bolt has been reported to have a max DCFC charge rate of both 60 kW and 80 kW. I haven't read any "I tried a new high-powered DCFC on the Bolt" posts yet, so I don't know. If the max current the Bolt will pull is 200A, then a max of 80 kW is theoretically possible (but based on the car stepping down charging fairly early, and rather often, at relatively low SoC - might not happen).

 

[DucRider]

The Bolt has been reported to have a max DCFC charge rate of both 60 kW and 80 kW. I haven't read any "I tried a new high-powered DCFC on the Bolt" posts yet, so I don't know. If the max current the Bolt will pull is 200A, then a max of 80 kW is theoretically possible (but based on the car stepping down charging fairly early, and rather often, at relatively low SoC - might not happen).

I wonder how fast the 12 kWh Outlander PHEV tapers when plugging in to the 50 kW CHAdeMO it comes standard with. Will it ever really even take 50?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Ionity (joint venture by BMW, Mercedes, Ford and VW/Audi /Porsche) is talking about rolling out (before end of 2019) a 150-350kW charging network, in both the U.S. and Europe.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/06/map-ionity-ultra-fast-charging-network/

https://electrek.co/2017/11/27/ionity-ultra-fast-electric-car-charging-network-partners-with-petrol-stations-chargers/

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2017/11/03/ionity---pan-european-high-power-charging-network-enables-e-mobi.html

This is the first I've heard of this venture - thanks for sharing!

That US map for the end of 2019 looks incredible! I cannot wait to charge my Bolt at many of those stations!

So for the CCS infrastructure, we have:

• EVGo - funded largely by Nissan/BMW, providing 50kW charging in major urban areas
• Electrify America - funded by VW's dieselgate fines, providing all ranges of charging. L2 destination charging, 50kW DC charging in urban areas and 150-350kW charging along major corridors.
• Ionity - providing another 150-350 kW charging network along corridors.

If this all comes to fruition, by 2020 the CCS network could meet or exceed Tesla's supercharging network, removing the largest remaining barrier to truly widespread EV adoption.

 

[SparkE]

This is the first I've heard of this venture - thanks for sharing!

That US map for the end of 2019 looks incredible! I cannot wait to charge my Bolt at many of those stations!

So for the CCS infrastructure, we have:

• EVGo - funded largely by Nissan/BMW, providing 50kW charging in major urban areas
• Electrify America - funded by VW's dieselgate fines, providing all ranges of charging. L2 destination charging, 50kW DC charging in urban areas and 150-350kW charging along major corridors.
• Ionity - providing another 150-350 kW charging network along corridors.

If this all comes to fruition, by 2020 the CCS network could meet or exceed Tesla's supercharging network, removing the largest remaining barrier to truly widespread EV adoption.

Well, if I use plugshare and drop EVgo from the options, there are still a lot of CCS DCFCs (in the U.S.) - although for longer distance travels they seem to be concentrated along the NE 'seashore' (from Virginia to Boston) and in California. Yes there are CCS DCFCs elsewhere, but they seem to simply be concentrated around large metro areas, so not for long distance travels (except in Oregon/Wash, and from Virginia south to Florida - where they are pretty slim on the ground).

And it seems to be fairly regional, but GreenLots and ChargePoint seem to be the two largest existing non-EVgo DCFC networks (in the U.S.). With just those two one seems to be able to travel up and down the two coasts : Tampa to Boston and San Diego to Seattle (although I wouldn't attempt it without EVgo backups(s), despite my dislike of the company). The big challenge at the moment is trying to travel east-West (and not just west coast-east coast : anything over about 800 miles is very problematic with a very few exceptions).

Once the VW money starts installing DCFCs, who knows? (And the CA installations, already approved and budgeted for over a year, *finally* open for business - that should make AZ and Western NV attainable).

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I'm most familiar with the EVGo network, since that is almost exclusively what's available where I travel (with the exception of a few Greenlots).

So far it seems the that Greenlots / Chargepoint networks are being deployed in a patchwork fashion. I have not seen any kind of coherent plan to roll these out. They seem instead to rely on one-off installations, or maybe some small partnerships. For example, the Greenlots chargers along the NYS Thruway (I-87) are a partnership with Greenlots and the Thruway Authority, using NYSERDA money to pay for it. They are not part of a larger plan to provide us (EV drivers) with a usable network for long distance travel.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

More powerful DC will be only be useful if the cars can take it.
Bolt is supposedly limited to 55 kW? Though some say 80 kW?
But that may change for 2019, or 2020?

The 2019 Leaf is supposed to accept 100 kW, but maybe that really means 80 kW?

No problem with the 3, I’m sure.

Other OEMs? Who knows?

EVgo is now installing 4-6 unit stations, upgradable to 200 Amps, so 80 kW for a 400 volt car.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Any chargers installed now will (hopefully) have a usable life of 10 years, if not more. Even 5 years from now I would expect most serious EVs to charge at 100kW or more. So for at least half of the lifetime of the station, the higher power will be utilized.

 

[IMAdolt]

Any chargers installed now will (hopefully) have a usable life of 10 years, if not more. Even 5 years from now I would expect most serious EVs to charge at 100kW or more. So for at least half of the lifetime of the station, the higher power will be utilized.

In 2028 when my bolts battery is fading to the point I'm having trouble driving to the wall to take my shift defending our nation from the muto-savages of the American wastes that I might be able to upgrade my power electronics and perhaps battery cells to accept a higher power density and charge rate, even if I have to retrofit them from a rekt 2025MY bolt.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I have no idea what you just said :lol:

 

[EldRick]

Yep - "Ultra-Fast-charging" has been "just around the corner" for at least 20 years. There are still significant financial barriers to implementing it, such as the extremely high cost to run new high-voltage lines to a charger location.

 

[devbolt]

The thing you plug into the vehicle to charge it tells the car what it can provide (current, voltage). The car then decides how much to pull.

For example, plugging a 32Amp/240V EVSE into a PHEV that will pull a max of 3.3 kW : car pulls 3.3 kW (max). Plugging a 16A/240V EVSE into a Bolt? The Bolt pulls 16A (max). Plugging a 24 kW (max) DCFC into a Bolt? Bolt pulls 24 kW (max). Plug a 200 kW DCFC into a Bolt? It will pull whatever the max rate the car determines - NOT the max of the charger.

The Bolt has been reported to have a max DCFC charge rate of both 60 kW and 80 kW. I haven't read any "I tried a new high-powered DCFC on the Bolt" posts yet, so I don't know. If the max current the Bolt will pull is 200A, then a max of 80 kW is theoretically possible (but based on the car stepping down charging fairly early, and rather often, at relatively low SoC - might not happen).

~55 kW on a 100kW charger is the max that our Norwegian Ampera-E cousins have seen with SOC below 50%. It’s a 20% improvement over what we’re getting on 50 kW units here in the US.

If the Bolt were able to pull the max of 200A from the wall it would be at low SOC, which means a pack voltage level between 325V and 360V, so that means a peak of between 65 and 72 kW. Unfortunately we don’t know yet what the taper points are below ~55% on a 80 kW or better source...

 

[SparkE]

Can you point me at a source for the max ~55 kW charge rates in the frigid, European north?

 

[devbolt]

Can you point me at a source for the max ~55 kW charge rates in the frigid, European north?

Sure:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Felbilforum.no%2Fforum%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C31392.0.html%3FPHPSESSID%3Dafh05imvbl3olvts0tn3bo47c2&sandbox=1

Go to page 14 of the thread for specific values at certain SOC levels. There’s another thread on that site with pictures showing the charging rates.

 

[devbolt]

Can you point me at a source for the max ~55 kW charge rates in the frigid, European north?

Sure:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Felbilforum.no%2Fforum%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C31392.0.html%3FPHPSESSID%3Dafh05imvbl3olvts0tn3bo47c2&sandbox=1

Go to page 14 of the thread for specific values at certain SOC levels. There’s another thread on that site with pictures showing the charging rates.

Here’s the other post with pictures:
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Felbilforum.no%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3FPHPSESSID%3Dafh05imvbl3olvts0tn3bo47c2%26topic%3D34930.0

 

[SparkE]

EXCELLENT! Thank you. I had gone to youtube to try and find videos of people charging (like the Tesla owner who tried to supercharge when it was -20 outside). No joy.

So it looks like 150A (~55 kW) max, AND it drops down to around 37 kW (?95A?) at a lower SoC (closer to 50% than 55%) when charging at the faster rate. (The supposition was that was due to battery temperature, because a user stopped the charge when the rate dropped to 37 kW, waited for a while, and re-started the charge, and the charge rate had returned to 55 kW for a short while).

So the Bolt doesn't ever charge at a rate of 1C. And the latest ChargePoint Express 250 units (max 62.5 kW) should fill the Bolt at its highest charge rate.

I was also happy to see that the posts were from August, so that the charge data wasn't impacted by extreme cold.