Are EV's "Green"?

[oilerlord]

From time to time, I visit a Solar forum. It was an immense help before and during my project. Anyway, one thread on the site reminded me a little about the buying new vs used debate, in terms of who owns the CO2 from the manufacturing of the car...and made me think if it can be argued that an EV is "green".

Someone on the Solar forum started a thread called "Are Solar Panels Green?" It broke brains. There were pages of arguments raging about it. I chimed in after looking up "green" in three different online dictionaries. Clearly, and by definition - Solar Panels are green. I even bought my panels used, so "Reuse" was part of the equation. Didn't change anything. The overwhelming majority in the discussion would not accept that Solar Panels are green.

The main point of contention focused on the energy & materials (and emitted CO2) that resulted from the manufacturing the panels. I think that applies here, with the key difference that an EV will never actually offset it's initial CO2 footprint (only emit less CO2 than an ICEV). Everyone in that discussion recognized that CO2 was released from the manufacturing process of Solar Panels. On this site however, the CO2 created from the manufacture of our EV's seems to be (to quote Al Gore") - an inconvenient truth we'd rather forget about than accept.

ICEV's are clearly NOT green. I'm 100% sure we all agree on that. They emit TONS of CO2 over their lifetime. While an EV has zero local emissions, grid emissions are still added to the planet, so an EV can't be considered in the same category as a Solar Panel (that will eventually overcome it's initial CO2 footprint during it's lifetime)...can it? So, at risk of breaking more brains...Are EVs green?

 

[devbolt]

They're more green than a comparable ICE vehicle. And it's more than just CO2 emissions that we should be considering here. NOX and other smog producing compounds, particulates from an incomplete combustion cycle, burning of oil as the ICE ages, etc. EVs help to reduce air pollution in general. They don't emit noxious fumes while sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. It's also far easier to control the pollutants from a single source than from millions.

Everything we do as humans on this planet has a negative impact on the earth. The key is to minimize that impact so that in the long-term the earth can continue to support our species. I hate the phrase that we're destroying earth when what we're actually doing is destroying the earth's ability to support our type of life. If we screw up the earth and the human species dies out as a result, the earth doesn't care. It will go "okay, that life form screwed up and wiped itself out. Let's see what happens next."

 

[WetEV]

Are EVs green?

Is the glass empty or dry? What about half full? Or 7/16?

 

[user 1034]

This showed up on the YouTube list while looking at a solar cell tent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXxHfb66ZgM

I offer no opinion on it though.

 

[boltage]

Partly it depends on how "green" your electricity sources are versus the process of making gasoline or diesel.

Of course, there are other external effects of car fuel/energy sources besides environmental ones (things like trade balance, or what (possibly foreign) entities the money goes to for oil versus other fuel/energy sources).

 

[oilerlord]

This showed up on the YouTube list while looking at a solar cell tent.

I offer no opinion on it though.

Thanks for posting the video. I suppose offering no opinion is the politically correct thing to do.

Watching the video brought me back to a discussion on this board about global warming. Just this week, another member said that buying an EV is a "categorical imperative":

Buying an EV is a categorical imperative. I can't control how others act, I can only act in a fashion which, if everyone acted similarly, will abate global warming.

Cheers, Wayne

From what I read on this site, I'd stipulate that the majority of members on this forum are absolutely on board with that. We buy a new EV, and we've chosen the righteous path to being saved. Amen, brother.

But Is it really a categorical imperative? I've read dozens of Wayne's posts. He may be an accountant because he offers very concise data and tends to use an accounting perspective to support his point of view. On that point however, no data or links were offered to support that claim. If we don't all buy an EV...is the planet dead 30 years from now? 50 years? 100? I was supposed to accept the statement on face value. Is it wrong that I didn't?

I challenged him on that, adding to the discussion that EV's still have grid emissions (some dirtier than others) and pointed out that EV's also have an initial CO2 footprint larger than their gasoline counterparts. I then offered:

"See where I'm going with this? Just because we're driving around in an EV, mitigating factors dictate that we're not necessarily reducing global CO2...we may in fact be piling onto the problem without realizing we're doing it."

Apparently, them's fighting words. Soon after, a moderator answered my question with this:

Yes, I think I do. Maybe this link will help.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern%20troll

Instead of implying that I'm a troll, isn't it the responsibility of a moderator to facilitate a discussion?

I have solar. I've planted trees, and grow some of our own food. I drive an EV. I'm doing a lot of the things that all good environmentalists do. The moment we're not supposed to discuss points offered from the "other side" of the debate is a red flag that a larger problem exists: Global warming has become a religion.

 

[WetEV]

Yes, I think I do. Maybe this link will help.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern%20troll

Instead of implying that I'm a troll, isn't it the responsibility of a moderator to facilitate a discussion?

I am not speaking not as a moderator at this time.

Sometimes people pretend to be something or someone they are not. Sometimes it is to try out roles they might like. Sometimes it is learn. Sometimes it is an inner personality conflict. Sometimes it is just trolling.

If you are not intending to troll, would you like to know when you sound like a troll?

 

[oilerlord]

Sometimes people pretend to be something or someone they are not. Sometimes it is to try out roles they might like. Sometimes it is learn. Sometimes it is an inner personality conflict. Sometimes it is just trolling.

Sometimes it's about keeping an open mind to explore other points of view - even when we don't necessarily agree with them.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Yes, EV's are the greenest cars on the road:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ny-gas-only-car-for-97-percent-of-u-s-drivers

 

[GetOffYourGas]

That study does not show whether or not EVs are green. To OilerLord's point:

• That study doesn't seem to include emissions from manufacturing
• I certainly agree with him that ICEVs (including Hybrids) aren't "green", and this just shows that operationally EVs are less damaging than ICEVs.

I chimed in after looking up "green" in three different online dictionaries.

It would be helpful in this thread to spell out what definition(s) of "green" you found.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

That study does not show whether or not EVs are green. To OilerLord's point:

• That study doesn't seem to include emissions from manufacturing
• I certainly agree with him that ICEVs (including Hybrids) aren't "green", and this just shows that operationally EVs are less damaging than ICEVs.

I chimed in after looking up "green" in three different online dictionaries.

It would be helpful in this thread to spell out what definition(s) of "green" you found.

It does include the manufacturing.

http://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-numbers-are-in-and-evs-are-cleaner-than-ever

Manufacturing emissions are important, but much less of a factor than fuel emissions.

The emissions estimates presented above compare the use of an EV compared to using a gasoline vehicle. However, there are also emissions associated with the production of these cars, and in general making EVs produces more emissions than a comparable gasoline car. We studied this issue in our “Cleaner Cars From Cradle to Grave” report in 2015 and found that the extra emissions from making an 80-mile range EV (compared to a similar gasoline car) are about 15% higher. However, this extra emissions ‘debt’ is quickly recovered by the savings that accrue while using the electric vehicle.

How quickly the emissions are recovered depends on where the car is charged, but for an EV the size of the Nissan LEAF, we found that break-even point occurs after 6 to 13 months of use (depending on electric grid region), well shorter than the likely lifespan of the car.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I stand corrected. I did not see that in my cursory look. That picture comparing to MPG of a gas car, however, does not include manufacturing.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

It does include manufacturing in the map. See my link and quote.

 

[oilerlord]

It would be helpful in this thread to spell out what definition(s) of "green" you found.

As per Merriam-Webster:

10
a: often capitalized : relating to or being an environmentalist political movement
b : concerned with or supporting environmentalism green consumers who practice recycling
c : tending to preserve environmental quality (as by being recyclable, biodegradable, or nonpolluting)

On the solar panel forum, I argued that solar panels are indeed "green" based the criteria in "C" being "nonpolluting". Even so, it was argued (surprisingly, by the majority on that thread) that solar panels are not green because CO2 is released during the process of manufacturing them.

I then argued that while that's true, within 2-3 years, a solar panel offsets all of the CO2 that was released during it's manufacture. New technology in solar is bringing that down to 1.5 years.

If you look at "A", EV's can be considered green as they quite distinctly relate to an environmentalist movement. I've brought up this point in other threads. People sometimes buy an EV to make an environmental statement. EV's clearly do that, and as such - can be considered "green" in the context of supporting an environmental movement.

An argument could be made that EVs "tend to preserve environmental quality as by being nonpolluting". I think that opens up a can of worms in terms of introducing "shades" of green. Clearly, a Toyota Corolla hybrid tends to preserve environmental quality by being non-polluting...but is it "green"?

In the strictest sense of the definition - whereby "nonpolluting" is concerned, my position is that EV's are not green. While an EV may be green-er than other cars on the road, they still emit grid emissions...and thus, pollute. They also emit more emissions than a comparable gasoline car during their manufacture.

In Pop culture however, even a Lexus RX450h is considered "green". While that may not necessarily be 100% correct, I have no problem with it.

 

[oilerlord]

It does include manufacturing in the map. See my link and quote.

Neil, read your quote again:

"The emissions estimates presented above compare the use of an EV compared to using a gasoline vehicle. However, there are also emissions associated with the production of these cars, and in general making EVs produces more emissions than a comparable gasoline car. We studied this issue in our “Cleaner Cars From Cradle to Grave” report in 2015 and found that the extra emissions from making an 80-mile range EV (compared to a similar gasoline car) are about 15% higher."

This was discussed in the "Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave" report, not the grid emissions map.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

It does include manufacturing in the map. See my link and quote.

Neil, read your quote again:

"The emissions estimates presented above compare the use of an EV compared to using a gasoline vehicle. However, there are also emissions associated with the production of these cars, and in general making EVs produces more emissions than a comparable gasoline car. We studied this issue in our “Cleaner Cars From Cradle to Grave” report in 2015 and found that the extra emissions from making an 80-mile range EV (compared to a similar gasoline car) are about 15% higher."

This was discussed in the "Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave" report, not the grid emissions map.

Even the map itself says:

Comparisons include gasoline and electricity fuel production emissions

The map is pretty clearly talking about well-to-wheels fuel use and not full lifetime emissions of the car itself. The article talks about manufacturing, but says that it is a small contribution. It doesn't use hard numbers, though. Only tells us roughly how small it is. To give real numbers, you'd need to qualify the number of miles driven before the EV overcomes the "manufacturing debt".

 

[DucRider]

The article talks about manufacturing, but says that it is a small contribution. It doesn't use hard numbers, though. Only tells us roughly how small it is. To give real numbers, you'd need to qualify the number of miles driven before the EV overcomes the "manufacturing debt".

http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default...ner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf

For a midsize 84-mile-range BEV, on average, the extra
manufacturing emissions are offset within 4,900 miles, or in
less than six months...
For a full-size 265-mile-range BEV, on average, the extra
manufacturing emissions are offset within 19,000 miles, or in
about 16 months of driving...

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Well there you go. Looks like we're making a mountain out of a molehill with regards to manufacturing emissions. I don't put a lot of miles on my Leaf. I average about 600 miles/month. But even at that rate, it's a little over 8 months to make up that debt. Probably less because I live in Upstate NY, with the cleanest grid in the entire country.

 

[oilerlord]

As I mentioned earlier, the initial manufacturing CO2 emissions happen regardless of what you car you buy.

Regarding those emissions, It doesn't matter how many miles you drive, or what fuel you burn. The CO2 created during the car's manufacturing process isn't somehow absorbed by the act of driving an EV. Some believe an EV is like a tree or a large solar panel on wheels offsetting CO2 as you drive. It doesn't work that way. You're not "making up a debt", you're simply adding less CO2, into the atmosphere. In terms your Leaf - 51% less CO2 over it's life-cycle compared with it's gasoline counterpart.

 

[SeanNelson]

Some believe an EV is like a tree or a large solar panel on wheels offsetting CO2 as you drive. It doesn't work that way. You're not "making up a debt", you're simply adding less CO2, into the atmosphere.

While I agree with what you're saying, I feel I should point out that there are CO2 emissions from making, transporting and installing solar panels and their ancillary equipment as well - so the same concepts apply as the ones you are describing for cars.