Are Electric Cars Really Green? PragerU PragerU
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LeftieBiker
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Sigh. Beginning with the strawman argument that EV proponents believe that electric cars are not responsible for any emissions, this propaganda piece then goes on to assume that coal is powering all EVs. (The grid in my area is powered mostlyby hydroelectric power and natural gas, with some solar and wind.) It carefully ignores the benefit of having no vehicle emissions in urban areas (unless they threw this in after I gave up about 2/3 of the way through), and of not having to deal with 100+ gallons of contaminated waste oil over the vehicle's lifetime. It also appears to imply that lithium is not recycled. I'm guessing that it also assumes that all lithium for batteries will come from China.
Aside from those little quibbles, great piece!
Aside from those little quibbles, great piece!
like2bike
Well-known member
How could I have been so blind? EVs are the main cause of climate change! What a slanted pile of sh..coal. The solution is to stop burning the coal. Maybe this guy should find a real U. to go to.
This is par for the course. It is the beginning of the reactionary opposition to the fight against climate change. Friday is D-day (Donald) so we shouldn't be surprised. I have come to see the the CC fight has many parallels to US abolition of slavery. Every knows in their heart something will have so be done, but few are willing to do anything in the beginning. Read about what the early abolitionists went through. The kind of blind rage they dealt with will surely be increasing in the years to come.
This is par for the course. It is the beginning of the reactionary opposition to the fight against climate change. Friday is D-day (Donald) so we shouldn't be surprised. I have come to see the the CC fight has many parallels to US abolition of slavery. Every knows in their heart something will have so be done, but few are willing to do anything in the beginning. Read about what the early abolitionists went through. The kind of blind rage they dealt with will surely be increasing in the years to come.
Yeah, this is unresearched BS. Coal is a minority player in the US and is decreasing every year - mostly offset by renewable energy, which may hit the 20% of electricity generated in the US in 2017.
Here is the mix of electricity generation fuels in the US in 2015: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
Here is the mix of electricity generation fuels in the US in 2015: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
Are "green" considerations the only external reasons people may choose electric vehicles?
Seems like replacing oil-based fuel with some other energy source has other implications:
a. Trade deficit. Some oil is imported to the US, while typical electricity generation sources (natural gas, coal, nuclear, solar, wind) are domestically sourced. Some hydropower is imported from Canada. Oil is at most a minimal source of electricity generation in almost every state (Hawaii is the exception, where oil is the main source). So replacing oil-based fuel with electric "fuel" should reduce the trade deficit.
b. Foreign policy and national security. While much imported oil comes from Canada and Mexico, increasing demand for oil raises the commodity price, which helps the treasuries of all oil-exporting governments and entities. Many of these are the kinds of governments or entities that people on both the left and right ends of the political spectrum do not like.
Since it appears that many early Bolt buyers are in California, the grid electricity is about half from natural gas, about a quarter from nuclear, and most of the rest from mostly renewable sources (coal and oil are minimal in California). Nationally, the biggest sources are natural gas and coal, with about a third each.
Seems like replacing oil-based fuel with some other energy source has other implications:
a. Trade deficit. Some oil is imported to the US, while typical electricity generation sources (natural gas, coal, nuclear, solar, wind) are domestically sourced. Some hydropower is imported from Canada. Oil is at most a minimal source of electricity generation in almost every state (Hawaii is the exception, where oil is the main source). So replacing oil-based fuel with electric "fuel" should reduce the trade deficit.
b. Foreign policy and national security. While much imported oil comes from Canada and Mexico, increasing demand for oil raises the commodity price, which helps the treasuries of all oil-exporting governments and entities. Many of these are the kinds of governments or entities that people on both the left and right ends of the political spectrum do not like.
Since it appears that many early Bolt buyers are in California, the grid electricity is about half from natural gas, about a quarter from nuclear, and most of the rest from mostly renewable sources (coal and oil are minimal in California). Nationally, the biggest sources are natural gas and coal, with about a third each.
Nagorak said:
If you are charging your EV at night from the grid, you are still using whatever the grid gets electricity from. However, until distributed solar becomes much more common, your own solar system removes that much demand from the grid during the day.
If everyone (including workplaces and other commercial buildings) has his/her own solar panels that generate approximately what s/he uses, then some sort of storage becomes necessary for night use when solar panels are not generating anything in order to reduce the need for other types of electricity sources currently needed for night demand.
Some have suggested that electric vehicles with large battery capacity and the ability to feed into the building that they are plugged into can function as these storage devices.
NeilBlanchard
Well-known member
If you offset all your electricity use with production from solar PV panels on your roof, then you offset all the fossil fuel carbon used on the grid, for your "portion".
A
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Then President-elect Trump paid $25 million to settle all of the lawsuits against Trump University; one of these issues was the unaccredited entity calling itself a "university"?
What is Dennis Prager's position on the effect of this settlement on his continued posting of videos from "Prager University?"
What is Dennis Prager's position on the effect of this settlement on his continued posting of videos from "Prager University?"
oilerlord
Well-known member
NeilBlanchard said:
And / or, just reduce your annual electricity consumption (through LED lights, monitoring A/C usage, more efficient appliances, etc) to offset the electricity required to drive your EV. For me, that added up to almost enough kWh's per year for me to drive an annual 10,000 miles - before spending money on solar. It's amazing how much savings anyone can find just being aware of where their power is going.
The key takeaway from the video is "burning coal is bad". I missed the part that explains why burning gasoline is "good".
Posatronic
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I also agree the is a BS video. It compares apples to oranges.
First the electric car(of any make or model) is 100% emmisions free. You can't argue this in any way. It IS 100% emmisions free.
Second if you now are looking at HOW the car is charge then yes there are Co2 emmisions from the grid. But now you opened a HUGE CAN of worms. Soooooo how much CO2 emmisions are produced by the 18 wheelers delivering the gas/diesel. How much CO2 emmisions are produced from the refinery?? To pump the oil? Add it up. Way more CO2 even if you assume 100% of all electricity is using coal. Not a very smart scientist.
First the electric car(of any make or model) is 100% emmisions free. You can't argue this in any way. It IS 100% emmisions free.
Second if you now are looking at HOW the car is charge then yes there are Co2 emmisions from the grid. But now you opened a HUGE CAN of worms. Soooooo how much CO2 emmisions are produced by the 18 wheelers delivering the gas/diesel. How much CO2 emmisions are produced from the refinery?? To pump the oil? Add it up. Way more CO2 even if you assume 100% of all electricity is using coal. Not a very smart scientist.
oilerlord
Well-known member
Posatronic said:
I wouldn't call the video BS, just very biased, one-sided argument against EV's. Whatever small bit of "truth" in it was spun into the realm of BS. I don't mind having a debate with people on either side of the argument for or against EV's - as long as valid arguments are made, without the emotional or political spin they unfortunately tend to use. An EV that's charged from the grid in Michigan is certainly less "green" than one that's charged in California, or an individual's home solar. As a matter of course in videos like these, the truth seems to be a casualty of spin. Again, all I took away from it was "coal is bad".
As for 18 wheelers, that's also a common spin point for "our" side. The reality is that we need those 18 wheelers. They quite literally, deliver the goods that keep our cities alive.
SparkEVPilot
Well-known member
Want to know how dirty an EV is in your area? Check this out: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-emissions-tool#z/NATIONAL/_/_/_
oilerlord
Well-known member
SparkEVPilot said:
Thanks for the link.
Just for fun, I did that with my EV and entered the zip of our vacation home in Arizona. Here's the result:
This surprised me a little. My VW with it's average 40 mpg doesn't appear to be so "dirty" vs an EV fueled from the local Phoenix power grid. Clearly, how your local poco generates its electricity matters. If the car is driven in Carlsbad, CA - the comparable ICEV needs to achieve an average 73 mpg.
If all you are looking at is CO2 vs a gas ICE, that is true. Your VW TDI in "cheat mode" is actually much better than that: ~110 g/km or 177 g/mile at the tailpipeoilerlord said:SparkEVPilot said:
Thanks for the link.
Just for fun, I did that with my EV and entered the zip of our vacation home in Arizona. Here's the result:
This surprised me a little. My VW with it's average 40 mpg doesn't appear to be so "dirty" vs an EV fueled from the local Phoenix power grid. Clearly, how your local poco generates its electricity matters. If the car is driven in Carlsbad, CA - the comparable ICEV needs to achieve an average 73 mpg.
Real world testing CO2 levels on TDI's puts CO2 @~250 to 400 g/m. Add in upstream GHG of 58 g/m (CO2 of US diesel for a 40 mpg vehicle) and that puts you at 300+ g/mile
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The biggest issue with diesels is NOx
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Your VW (with the lean NOx trap) dynos @ .022 g/km or well within the EPA .043 g/km limit.
Real world measurements are a different story - up to 70 times the legal limit has been observed, and 2012 vintage TDI's test at levels that vary between .62 and 1.5 g/km depending on driving conditions.
Google NOx effects and you'll find links as to how nasty it is.
from the Wiki on the VW scandal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Health_consequences
Posatronic
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You complete missed why they are comparing the wrong things. They are including the distribution of the fuel.oilerlord said:
My point wasn't 18 wheelers were bad. It contributes to the co2 of gas distribution like what they are trying to compare coal electricity to an EV.
oilerlord
Well-known member
DucRider said:
Gary, you're splitting hairs. My VW generally returns about 45mpg on the freeways of the Phoenix valley. There are a lot of old smoking V-8 clunkers, and monster trucks in the valley that are doing a lot more damage to the environment that my car is, so I'm comfortable with the choice I made going with a very fuel efficient car. While I don't disagree that diesel is bad - gasoline isn't necessarily "clean" either, so please don't defend it.
WetEV
Well-known member
SparkEVPilot said:
I get 105 Grams of CO2e Per Mile. However, I've put in several different local Zip codes with different electric utilities, some of which are almost all hydro and some of which have some fossil fuel components, and the answer is the same.
Seattle City, Puget Energy, Snohomish PUD, OPALCO, ... Range is from 1.8% fossil power to 59% fossil power. The EV emissions tool must use some sort of larger area than the utilities.
Best:
http://www.seattle.gov/light/FuelMix/
Worst:
https://pse.com/aboutpse/energysupply/pages/electric-supply.aspx
