Success with 2-wire charging?

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gpsman

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 20, 2016
Messages
524
I just bought an older house.
This house only has 2 wires run to each plug.

I drive few enough miles per day I have gotten by with 120 VAC charging.

Has anyone had any luck with charging off a 2-wire house?

I will upgrade the home eventually.
But it will take me several months and I need to keep driving in the mean time.

Thanks!
 
I wouldn't risk charging without proper grounding, even if you get an adapter. The included EVSE will pull every amp it has available, and that's a LOT of juice. You risk opening yourself up to a world of hurt.
 
Ummmm. No.
It does not pull any more current than a household vacuum cleaner.

I don't know why there is this mis-conception.
I guess it is because it is a larger "appliance".

Ground wire, sure.

What I'm asking is:
What are acceptible grounds?
A) A cooper rod nailed in the ground
B) A copper pipe that runs underground
C) What about a galvanzied pipe?

What else?

I looked outside and there are only 2 wires coming down from the power pole. I assume those are 2 legs of 120 Volts and they use earth as ground. ?
 
gpsman said:
I just bought an older house.
This house only has 2 wires run to each plug.

I drive few enough miles per day I have gotten by with 120 VAC charging.

Has anyone had any luck with charging off a 2-wire house?

I will upgrade the home eventually.
But it will take me several months and I need to keep driving in the mean time.

Thanks!
Get an electrician and have them properly install a grounded outlet. And then get the house's electrical system upgraded (which you state you are going to do).

Either that or rely on public charging until you can get the necessary electrical work done.
 
gpsman said:
Ummmm. No.
It does not pull any more current than a household vacuum cleaner.

I don't know why there is this mis-conception.
I guess it is because it is a larger "appliance".

Ground wire, sure.

What I'm asking is:
What are acceptible grounds?
A) A cooper rod nailed in the ground
B) A copper pipe that runs underground
C) What about a galvanzied pipe?

What else?

I looked outside and there are only 2 wires coming down from the power pole. I assume those are 2 legs of 120 Volts and they use earth as ground. ?

A vacuum cleaner is only running for 20 or 30 minutes max at a time. The 120V EVSE will be running for 8 to 16 hours. Big difference.
 
gpsman said:
What I'm asking is:
What are acceptible grounds?
A) A cooper rod nailed in the ground
B) A copper pipe that runs underground
C) What about a galvanzied pipe?

What else?

I looked outside and there are only 2 wires coming down from the power pole. I assume those are 2 legs of 120 Volts and they use earth as ground. ?
If I remember correctly, there is too much resistance on galvanized metals to provide adequate grounding. I could be entirely wrong though as it has been so long.
 
An 'acceptable' ground is one that conforms to the National Electrical Code (NEC) - caveat any changes made by local bodies. IIRC, that means a specific type/size of rod (more than one choice) driven to a particular minimum depth (different if placed horizontally or vertically), and tied to the ground at your main panel. All grounds are supposed to be bound (linked) to one another, such that they have the same 'potential' (IIRC). I also think that you are supposed to have at least 2 different ground rods. And if you are going to the trouble of properly grounding your panel, you should spring the extra $$$ and use copper-clad ground rods, not galvinized (they will last a HELL of a lot longer). Unless you don't care if the ground rod only lasts 10-12 years or so ...

My EVSE does an actual load test - my 3-prong garage sockets fail that test, even though a simple LED ground & fault tester report that the receptacles are grounded (60 year old house, improperly 'upgraded').

You *may* be able to get away with installing a non-grounded GFCI receptacle in the garage for the EVSE (and by 'get away with', I mean the EVSE may work, not that it is a particularly good idea). In a fault situation, a non-grounded GFCI will trip fast enough to not kill you (hopefully) but probably will not trip fast enough to save the electronics from frying (there is no ground to which the unit can shunt the current). You *will* get a shock, it just won't kill you. If you do go with a GFCI, check to see which of the receptacles in the garage is 'first', and replace that one with GFCI. (turn off power ; unhook the hot wire on one of the receptacles and insulate/protect it; turn power back on and check to see if other sockets have power or not. Repeat until you find the socket that 'disables' the most sockets - that will be the socket between the main panel and (most of) the other sockets, providing a (small) degree of protection for all of those sockets by installing a single GFCI).

If your receptacles are in metal boxes, the boxes themselves may be grounded. You can test for this. If that is that case, you CAN properly ground a GFCI socket. This is better than installing a GFCI which isn't grounded at all. I am pretty sure that if you install a non-grounded GFCI, you are *required* (by NEC) to label the receptacle with, "No equipment ground."
 
Don't mess with overloading older wiring. Your day could end badly.

You probably have your main panel in the garage or close to it. For not much money, you could have a local electrition come out and add a dedicated breaker in the panel (assuming there is room) with a three-wire outlet next to it that would safely give you 15+ amps. For a bit more money, you could get 220v which you can use for a Level 2 charger.
 
msmportata said:
Don't mess with overloading older wiring. Your day could end badly.

You probably have your main panel in the garage or close to it. For not much money, you could have a local electrition come out and add a dedicated breaker in the panel (assuming there is room) with a three-wire outlet next to it that would safely give you 15+ amps. For a bit more money, you could get 220v which you can use for a Level 2 charger.

If nothing in the house (or panel) is grounded, the work described above will not be inexpensive. Installing two ground rods, and binding them, is not cheap (when you pay the electrician), and that doesn't even count the cost of a panel upgrade if needed (depending on how old the house is) or inspection/permit fees. (You find out exactly how expensive it really is to have electrical work done without permits when you try to sell your house.) Now, if you are planning on a solar panel installation, all that (grounding, panel, etc) work will have to be done anyways (with permit) so you might as well have it all done at the same time.

If the circuit to your garage has a 15 amp or larger circuit breaker, running the 120V EVSE at 8 amps should not be a problem at all.
 
The ground cable isn't run from the power line. As mentioned, ground is provided by the grounding rod(s). The $64k question is whether or not this house has ANY ground. The easiest way to test that is to use an inexpensive electrician's test light. CAREFULLY place one prong in the Hot slot (small slot if they are different) of an outlet you want to test, and the other prong firmly against the screw that holds the cover plate on the outlet. It the light lights, there is a ground. If not, try the other outlet slot. If no light, further testing is needed, but that outlet and its box aren't grounded. (I had to deal with this in the Nineties when I went to install a grounded outlet upstairs here, and discovered no ground. A delightful Summer spent rewiring much of the house ensued.)
 
gpsman said:
What I'm asking is:
What are acceptible grounds?
A) A cooper rod nailed in the ground
B) A copper pipe that runs underground
C) What about a galvanzied pipe?
None of the above. The only acceptable ground (EGC) for a receptacle for an EVSE that does a ground test is an NEC compliant EGC (of the wire type or of the metallic conduit type) that runs from the receptacle back to the main service panel, where it is bonded to the service neutral conductor. This is the one and only place that the grounds (EGCs) in the your house should be tied to the neutral conductor.

Installing an isolated ground rod and connecting it to a receptacle will not provide an acceptable ground (EGC) and in fact will be more dangerous than leaving the receptacle ungrounded. Edit: It will also not allow an EVSE to complete its ground test.

gpsman said:
I looked outside and there are only 2 wires coming down from the power pole. I assume those are 2 legs of 120 Volts and they use earth as ground. ?
There should be 3 wires, unless you have a very old 120V only service. For an overhead service, the neutral conductor is often bare, with a steel core, and serves the additional function of physically supporting the service conductors.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I'm going to go with what everybody else is saying here. Run new wires. Get somebody else to do it, because in an old house, it's disgusting work. Spiders, crawl spaces, rat shit, etc. The old rubber and cloth covered garbage you no doubt have are going to burn your place down, and the duty cycle of an EV charger is pretty relentless. Three days or whatever at 12 amps to charge your car from empty? Ridiculous. Who needs that?

There's a chance that your wires are run through rigid metal pipe, which is usually grounded, provided no mickey mouse electricians screwed it up in the past, and those pipes are a good insurance policy. On the other hand, the best grounds are to water pipes and 8' rods driven into the earth. Problem is it's so damn dry in California. You can get an 8' copper clad steel rod for $12 at Home Depot. Good luck driving it in without driving yourself insane.

IF I were in a pinch, and needed to charge my car, I'd put in a new receptacle and ground it to anything and everything I could nearby with a nice big fat wire. Galvanized or not. Not the right way to do it, but if it's the apocalypse, I'd rather have the body of the car at the same potential as the water pipe. And about those rigid pipes? If you get full 120V between the outlet's hot and the metal housing of the box, it may well be grounded already, though no guarantee it's a low impedance path (in other words, it could be a crappy ground) but it's likely better than nothing. In that case, the simple act of putting in a new receptacle will give you a half-assed ground connection. Save yourself the headache though, and slam in a real plug. The Leviton 5842 is regular outlet shaped, but has a NEMA 6-20 and a 5-15 in the same body. download.jpg

That way you could turbocord it OR portable it.
 
Pigwich said:
IF I were in a pinch, and needed to charge my car, I'd put in a new receptacle and ground it to anything and everything I could nearby with a nice big fat wire.
That is not useful. The only ground that will allow the EVSE to complete its ground check is an EGC run back to the main service panel and bonded there to the grounded service condcutor. Attaching the ground pin of a receptacle to random earth electrodes in the absence of a proper EGC will do no good and may do harm.

Cheers, Wayne
 
devbolt said:
That outlet is a NEMA 6-20 which incorporates a NEMA 6-15. No NEMA 5-15 capability there since you'd need a second vertical blade.
Actually, Pigwich described it correctly, it is a NEMA 6-20 (the horizontal hot prong)/NEMA 5-20 (the vertical hot prong) duplex.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
devbolt said:
That outlet is a NEMA 6-20 which incorporates a NEMA 6-15. No NEMA 5-15 capability there since you'd need a second vertical blade.
Actually, Pigwich described it correctly, it is a NEMA 6-20 (the horizontal hot prong)/NEMA 5-20 (the vertical hot prong) duplex.
Yeah - you have to look twice, but the bottom receptacle is different than the top one.
 
SeanNelson said:
wwhitney said:
devbolt said:
That outlet is a NEMA 6-20 which incorporates a NEMA 6-15. No NEMA 5-15 capability there since you'd need a second vertical blade.
Actually, Pigwich described it correctly, it is a NEMA 6-20 (the horizontal hot prong)/NEMA 5-20 (the vertical hot prong) duplex.
Yeah - you have to look twice, but the bottom receptacle is different than the top one.

I sit corrected! That's a pretty neat receptacle.
 
wwhitney said:
devbolt said:
That outlet is a NEMA 6-20 which incorporates a NEMA 6-15. No NEMA 5-15 capability there since you'd need a second vertical blade.
Actually, Pigwich described it correctly, it is a NEMA 6-20 (the horizontal hot prong)/NEMA 5-20 (the vertical hot prong) duplex.

Cheers, Wayne

You are correct. That's what I get for not looking closely enough...
 
wwhitney said:
That is not useful. The only ground that will allow the EVSE to complete its ground check is an EGC run back to the main service panel and bonded there to the grounded service conductor. Attaching the ground pin of a receptacle to random earth electrodes in the absence of a proper EGC will do no good and may do harm.

Cheers, Wayne

At this point, we're arguing theoreticals, which is fun. Get a real outlet. End of story. On to arguing :)

Totally agree with Wayne (and let's not worry about harm to the charger) , although I have my doubts that the ground check uses much current to check said ground, as doing so could actually cause the car body to rise up to whatever leg they're checking the ground against were the ground wire leading in to the charger be floating (and the car was plugged in while said test was being conducted) . And of course, the car contactor in the charger is open during the test, but that ground pin is ALWAYS connected. In other words, I would not be surprised if many chargers didn't care if the ground is weak, because doing a demanding test on a failing unit would create a dangerous situation.....and at the end of the day, EVSE be damned, what you care most about is that the door handle of the car is at the same electrical potential as the puddle you're standing in.

I still stand by my original advice - If you're going to mickey mouse some stupid crap, at least get that ground connected to SOMETHING. Even a crappy ground will give the EVSE an opportunity to trip the GFCI (through the crappy ground) BEFORE you touch the car. If your charger hates it, well then, too bad. If you can get away with it, more power (ha) to you, but save your money for that real outlet.
 
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